|
Post by bobryan on May 31, 2016 20:55:09 GMT -5
Sorry, Bob, I missed these, thought they were part of previous conversation. you risk over-simplification since not all gentiles are saved in Romans 11 and not all Jews are lost ... if having a lost jew means no jews are saved by faith - then having a lost gentile means no gentiles are saved by faith. It is an idea that does not work. - Paul claims he is a Jew according to Roman 9 and 11. In fact Paul makes this statement in Romans 4 -- once again including both Jew and gentile under Abraham 'father of the faithful' - And Heb 11 declares OT Jewish saints to be the prime example of salvation by faith among the saints. Heb 11Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ... And then you later admit that in fact Heb 11 is including Jews, Israel, Patriarchs -- > OT saints. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (A city that in Rev 21 in the fullness of the promise - "comes down to earth" -- Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5:5 -- the Gospel teaching of Christ -- pre-cross Sorry, but they did not seek the heavenly country of the Eternal State. on the contrary - 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. I am going to have to go with the Bible on that one. Until you read 1 Peter 1 where we are told that they were shown "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" We have "more details" -- "More history" but they have Moses and Elijah -- in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17, and Luke 9 ... something even we do not have. And all of us - still wait for the "New Heavens and New Earth" of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-4. None of us have that - Matt 5:5 "meek shall inherit the Earth" promise - yet. no statement in all of scripture says OT saints "were perfected at the time of the cross".
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 31, 2016 21:10:58 GMT -5
One last thing for now, in regards to the title of the OP: could you present other arguments for New Birth prior to Pentecost? God bless. John 3 -- Nicodemus - Christ argues that the NEW Birth is OT reality - OT doctrine - OT Gospel - OT teaching. Ps 51 -- when David turns to God in repentance and seeks to be restored - he appeals to the very salvation - Gospel - specifics that you seem to argue are impossible before Pentecost. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. Your main argument has been that these people were not "Once saved always saved" but as we see in Matt 18 and in Romans 11 - neither were NT saints. Jesus did not say "someday you must be born again" in John 3 - Jesus did not say "nobody is saved today". Jesus did not say "someday the Holy Spirit will work this way" in John 3. In Ps 51 David does not say "someday in the future - do not take your holy spirit from someone that will live 1000 years from now" -- All of what we find above - is present reality to the speaker. Matt 17 and Luke 9 - Moses is presently in glorified form with Christ. So also Elijah. -- pre-cross. Heb 11 - Enoch was taken to heaven - 1000's years before Heb 11 was ever penned. The OT - pre-cross New Birth - just as essential as it is today - just as real. Only ONE gospel in all ages. Your answer "Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament." - ignores almost every detail given where we see it present in their lives. Your only point so far is that there is something in the future for them - just as there is for us for example in the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-3. "NOW we see in a glass darkly - but THEN face to face" -- in Christ, Bob
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 1, 2016 8:19:40 GMT -5
John 3 -- Nicodemus - Christ argues that the NEW Birth is OT reality - OT doctrine - OT Gospel - OT teaching. Ps 51 -- when David turns to God in repentance and seeks to be restored - he appeals to the very salvation - Gospel - specifics that you seem to argue are impossible before Pentecost. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. Your main argument has been that these people were not "Once saved always saved" but as we see in Matt 18 and in Romans 11 - neither were NT saints. Jesus did not say "someday you must be born again" in John 3 - Correct, all He said was that men must be born again from above in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And when we understand that men are not born again apart from the indwelling of the Spirit, Who was not sent until Pentecost, we see that men were not born again, born of the Spirit, born of God, born of the Word. Men were not baptized with the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. While the Spirit of God did minister through and to men, surely you can see the difference between His ministry under the Law and His Ministry within the New Covenant. Jesus did not say "nobody is saved today". I'm not saying that either. I am saying they were not born again, lol. Big distinction. Yet they did not go to Heaven, Bob. They could not, they were not in eternal union with God, and their sins had not been forgiven. That is why it is promised when the New Covenant is established. If you say their sins were forgiven on an eternal basis, then you are equating the blood of bulls and goats with the Blood (death) of Christ. Jesus did not say "someday the Holy Spirit will work this way" in John 3. In point of fact we have quite extensive teaching that He said that very thing. Many of them have been posted and you have not addressed them at all. In John 3 we see the future aspect of salvation here... John 3:9-15
King James Version (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.As pointed out many times, Bob, who is believing on Christ? Note in this passage we see... 1. Nicodemus' question how things can be; 2. Christ's response that Nicodemus will not understand the heavenly realities because what he has been told, earthly realities were not understood; 3. No man has ascended to Heaven; 4. "These things" will be through Christ's death; 5. Those who believe on Christ and His death will receive eternal life. Of course it is future. The Gospel is a mystery, Bob, and the Lord is not revealing it to Nicodemus at this time. In view is the "earthly," the Millennial Kingdom. We can be sure Christ is working within the framework of the Prophecy found in the Law and the Prophets, because this time is...under Law. Eternal life is bestowed to those trusting in the risen Savior, not to those who have a hope in the Messiah they have created from their own desires, which is what all of Israel had done, including the Disciples of Christ. If that kind of hope saved, then we have to conclude that all Jews who reject Jesus yet still have a hope in the coming of Messiah are saved. We would also have to conclude that all one has to have is a concept of a messiah coming, and they too will be saved. We would have to include Muslims in that as well, as they too await a messiah. In Ps 51 David does not say "someday in the future - do not take your holy spirit from someone that will live 1000 years from now" -- I asked you before, do you also plea with God not to take His eternal indwelling from you? This would conflict with the numerous teachings that make it clear that when one is Baptized with the Holy Ghost that is the guarantee of the redemption of the purchased possession. Meaning, we will be glorified because we are eternally indwelt. We would be in grave error to pray David's prayer, because it contradicts what God has told us. Here is an example of that: John 14:16-18
King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.When He came He would not just be with them, but in them, and contrasted with Christ's departure, He would abide with them forever. You can't deny this is prophetic. All of what we find above - is present reality to the speaker. Not at all. Not one man was trusting in Christ. And you impose into what Nicodemus should have known an understanding Paul makes clear was not available to him, or anyone. You are denying the teachings of the New Testament regarding Mystery, and saying there was no mystery, eye had seen, ear had heard, and it had entered the heart of men that which God had prepared for them. But it had not. Nicodemus should have known the Prophecy, and instead of asking how a man can enter the womb again, understood that being born of God was in view. We see in John 1 that the power to become the sons of God began with the Incarnation. Matt 17 and Luke 9 - Moses is presently in glorified form with Christ. So also Elijah. -- pre-cross. Again, no possible way to confuse Moses and Elijah being seen in glory with the glorified form. Christ is the Firstfruits and Firstborn from the dead, meaning He is the first to be raised in an incorruptible body, not Enoch, not Elijah, not Moses. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.Colossians 1:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Revelation 1:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
You make Enoch, Elijah, and Moses the firstborn from the dead, if in fact they were in glorified bodies. But, as I said, nothing in the text suggests that. "Glory" is used in many contexts, and to impose the glorified body into this one denies that Christ is the first to rise from the dead never to die again. Heb 11 - Enoch was taken to heaven - 1000's years before Heb 11 was ever penned. Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.I don't see anything here that says Enoch was born again, glorified, or taken to Heaven. The OT - pre-cross New Birth - just as essential as it is today - just as real. The Old Testament Saint died not receiving the promise/s. He did not receive the Promised Spirit, for one thing. He did not receive complete remission of sins. He did not receive the Mystery of the Gospel. You say I am teaching another gospel, yet you are saying men were born again apart from trusting in Christ, and specifically his death in their place. You are saying they were forgiven on an eternal basis because they sacrificed animals. Think about that, Bob. Only ONE gospel in all ages. This is true, but only One Age (so far, lol) in which the Gospel is revealed by the Ministry of the Comforter. This is why we do not pray as David, "Take not thy Spirit from me." Because we know...it is finished. Your answer "Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament." - ignores almost every detail given where we see it present in their lives. Again, not sure how you can charge me with ignoring anything. Have I not addressed all of your arguments? Have you addressed mine? Your only point so far is that there is something in the future for them - This is correct, there is something in the future for the Old Testament Saint, but it is not just one thing, it is many: the New Covennat and it's elements did not begin until the New Covenant was established. just as there is for us for example in the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-3. I do not see the "new heavens and earth of Isaiah" exactly for us, Bob, because we will, I believe, reside in New Jerusalem, that place Christ went to prepare for us. The new heavens and earth of Isaiah is a physical kingdom, in which long life and the enmity concerning animals will be characteristic of that Age. The people who inhabit that physical kingdom will be flesh and blood men and women, not glorified saints (though we see that the Tribulation Martyrs will reign with Christ at that time). The Eternal State was not revealed to men through Isaiah, though it foretells it, just as Isaiah's prophecy concerning Christ cannot be considered revelation of the Gospel Mystery. The Kingdom Parables of Christ also show distinct markers that show a physical Kingdom, such as stewardship of money. So while there lies in this teaching shadows of the Eternal State, they are two entirely different kingdoms, and the teachings of Christ in John 3 will be fulfilled... ...no man will enter that Kingdom except he be born from above. All unbelievers will perish prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, this is seen in numerous places, and explicitly taught in Matthew 25. The New heavens and Earth of Revelation 21 is not the same Kingdom of Isaiah. "NOW we see in a glass darkly - but THEN face to face" -- in Christ, Bob There is no question our salvation culminates in the glorified form and when we are with Christ, but that does not impose new borth anywhere in the Old Testament. Do you really not see a difference between the ministries of the Holy Spirit in the Old TEstament and His Ministry Post-Pentecost? Do you really not see Christ's foretelling of that which would take place after He returned to Heaven and what was taking place at the time of His Own Ministry? Do you really view King Saul as a born again believer in Christ who lost his salvation? Because if he was eternally indwelt under New Covenant conditions, then this makes a mess of Scripture on many points. We can't trust that we are sealed with the Spirit of God, nor that it is the guarantee of our redemption. We can't trust Christ saying He will never leave nor forsake us. We can't take God at His Word that when He said He would do a new work in the future that He would do it, if He was already doing it then. We can stop preaching at those who deny Christ, because, after all...Peter did this. We can't correct those who say that men can be saved by living good lives, because after all...Peter did not view Christ's death as necessary. The contradictions that arise when we equate salvation in Christ through revelation of the Gospel are many, and this is why I think men will fight against these simple truths. Because they have for so long taken for granted that Peter and the disciples were born again Christians, to think otherwise would mean admitting...they were wrong. Since I am having to repeat the same responses to the same arguments, I will leave you with a question: What exactly does this... John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)...mean? God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 1, 2016 8:41:09 GMT -5
Sorry, Bob, I missed these, thought they were part of previous conversation. Sorry, but they did not seek the heavenly country of the Eternal State. on the contrary - 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. I am going to have to go with the Bible on that one. Again, they did not seek the Eternal State, it was not made known to them. What was made known was the physical land/s they received. If you are going to go with the Bible, then you will have to add quite a bit more into the equation. Secondly, we have to understand the shadow that is involved with the Old Testament type. We cannot equate the Land given them, nor the provision, with that which became available when Christ died, resurrected, returned to Heaven, sent the Spirit, and established the New Covenant. Lastly, and more importantly, if you understand Hebrews, you will see one very important factor: we have been made perfect, unlike the Old Testament Saint, who was made perfect retro-actively. You can impose anything you like into what their seeking an heavenly country means, but, you cannot negate the fact that the Writer of Hebrews teaches that not one of them were made perfect, and not one of them received the promises. Until you read 1 Peter 1 where we are told that they were shown "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" Right, and you ignore "the glories to follow," not to mention the fact they did not minister these truths to themselves, which again shows...they did not understand, and therefore cannot be equated to those who have had this/these mysteries revealed to them. I have addressed this at least twice now, Bob, you would have me address it again? You keep ignoring v.12. We have "more details" -- "More history" but they have Moses and Elijah -- in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17, and Luke 9 ... something even we do not have. Not possible for them to be glorified before Christ. Only Christ is glorified at this time, that is...in a resurrected body which shall never die again. Moses and Elijah are still in spirit form. They they appear in glory does not equate to resurrected in glorified form, because that would mean they rose from the dead before Christ. And this is the very thing the study seeks to address: the minimizing of the Work of Christ and the New Covenant. You are nullifying the importance of Christ's teaching (not to mention the teachings of the Old Testament) when you refuse to acknowledge that the Spirit had not yet been sent. You are arguing for an Old Testament that has the identical provision of the New, which equates being under Law as identical to being under the New Covenant. That boggles the mind, Bob. You need to consider why the Law was given, and why the New Covenant was a necessity, and that the New Covenant was not a reality until Pentecost. It simply boggles the mind that you would argue that case. And all of us - still wait for the "New Heavens and New Earth" of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-4. None of us have that - Matt 5:5 "meek shall inherit the Earth" promise - yet. no statement in all of scripture says OT saints "were perfected at the time of the cross". I gave you one of them. What does "the spirits of just men made perfect" mean, Bob? And keep it in the context of the teachings of the Book of Hebrews. While you cannot see the theme of perfection here, I assure you...here it is: Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.If eternal redemption and the redemption of transgressions under the Law were accomplished by the Blood (death) of Christ...how can you impose redemption through the blood of bulls and goats? You need to go with the Bible on this, Bob. It's right there. The blood of bulls and goats sanctified to the purifying of the flesh... ...is that redemption under the Law? Do you really want to contradict the Writer here, and Paul in numerous passages, that state the Law... ...could not save? Okay, we are simply repeating the same things over, so I would just ask that you address the Scripture given. Two passages given in these two posts, John 7:38-39, and Hebrews 9:12-15. Both show what was not going on under the Law, and these are key elements in salvation in Christ. Please show where these are not meaning what they seem so clearly to teach. The Spirit was not given prior to Pentecost, Christ was not yet glorified, and the Old TEstament Saint died still in need of redemption. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on Jun 1, 2016 10:37:18 GMT -5
John 3 -- Nicodemus - Christ argues that the NEW Birth is OT reality - OT doctrine - OT Gospel - OT teaching. Ps 51 -- when David turns to God in repentance and seeks to be restored - he appeals to the very salvation - Gospel - specifics that you seem to argue are impossible before Pentecost. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. Your main argument has been that these people were not "Once saved always saved" but as we see in Matt 18 and in Romans 11 - neither were NT saints. Jesus did not say "someday you must be born again" in John 3 - Jesus did not say "nobody is saved today". Jesus did not say "someday the Holy Spirit will work this way" in John 3. In Ps 51 David does not say "someday in the future - do not take your holy spirit from someone that will live 1000 years from now" -- All of what we find above - is present reality to the speaker. Matt 17 and Luke 9 - Moses is presently in glorified form with Christ. So also Elijah. -- pre-cross. Heb 11 - Enoch was taken to heaven - 1000's years before Heb 11 was ever penned. The OT - pre-cross New Birth - just as essential as it is today - just as real. Only ONE gospel in all ages. Your answer "Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament." - ignores almost every detail given where we see it present in their lives. Your only point so far is that there is something in the future for them - just as there is for us for example in the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-3. "NOW we see in a glass darkly - but THEN face to face" -- in Christ, Bob your argument is from assumption and inference -- all the examples show present reality for those speaking. your argument is that it cannot possibly be true because you assume there was no Holy Spirit before the cross. But John 3 is a pre-cross statement of Christ - that does not fit your assumption. What is more there are many references to the work of the Holy Spirit before the cross that you are not dealing with - in your assumption that he could not have been doing the work that He does under the Gospel - in the OT -- as if the OT has "another gospel" and not the one where the Holy Spirit not only convicts of sin - leads into truth - but also causes the new Birth. you argue a gospel of "saved but not born again" -- no such gospel in all of scripture - not even at the pre-cross time of John 3. We see in Matt 17 and Luke 9 - Moses and Elijah in glorified forms WITH Christ in his transfigured glorified form - pre-cross ... against which you offer your assumption -- but the Bible says that they did go to heaven - and they are in glorified form. 2 Kings 2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.” But Elisha said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So they went down to Bethel. 3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?” And he said, “Yes, I know; keep silent!” .. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground. 9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” 10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on Jun 1, 2016 16:49:34 GMT -5
In Romans 3 we have the definition of the sinful nature - proving beyond all doubt that the saints of Hebrews 11 - could not possibly be doing what they did without first being born again. It is not possible according to Romans 3 - for the unregenerate heart to do what we see being done in Hebrews 11.
Romans 3 --
All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c] “The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d] 14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e] 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f] 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2016 7:45:19 GMT -5
Jesus did not say "someday you must be born again" in John 3 - Jesus did not say "nobody is saved today". Jesus did not say "someday the Holy Spirit will work this way" in John 3. In Ps 51 David does not say "someday in the future - do not take your holy spirit from someone that will live 1000 years from now" -- All of what we find above - is present reality to the speaker. Matt 17 and Luke 9 - Moses is presently in glorified form with Christ. So also Elijah. -- pre-cross. Heb 11 - Enoch was taken to heaven - 1000's years before Heb 11 was ever penned. The OT - pre-cross New Birth - just as essential as it is today - just as real. Only ONE gospel in all ages. Your answer "Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament." - ignores almost every detail given where we see it present in their lives. Your only point so far is that there is something in the future for them - just as there is for us for example in the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-3. "NOW we see in a glass darkly - but THEN face to face" -- in Christ, Bob your argument is from assumption and inference -- all the examples show present reality for those speaking. your argument is that it cannot possibly be true because you assume there was no Holy Spirit before the cross. If you would address what I am saying...you would not assert an argument like this. Nowhere have I said the Spirit of God was non-existent in the Old Testament, lol. What I have pointed out from Scripture is that the Spirit was not sent in the ministry He performs today in convicting men of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and enlightening them to the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Until you deal with those issues you will continue to reiterate the same arguments already addressed. Will you not address what I say, Bob? You are confusing the Ministries of the Spirit between the distinct Ages of the Old Testament. You are saying this... John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
...had already taken place, quite in contradiction to what is stated here. The Spirit was not yet given, and Christ was not yet glorified. Will you at least show why John is in error and you are correct? Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2016 7:58:13 GMT -5
But John 3 is a pre-cross statement of Christ - that does not fit your assumption. There is no assumption, I have addressed John 3 several times already, and still await an address of what I have said. Ezekiel knew of the new birth as well, as he gives us the clearest picture of it in the Old Testament, yet no-one tries to make the promise fulfilled in that day. So why do you try to impose a fulfillment of the promises of God in John 3? Hebrews makes it clear that they did not receive the promise/s, as does Christ: Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.What is more there are many references to the work of the Holy Spirit before the cross that you are not dealing with - in your assumption that he could not have been doing the work that He does under the Gospel - in the OT -- as if the OT has "another gospel" and not the one where the Holy Spirit not only convicts of sin - leads into truth - but also causes the new Birth. I have dealt with them, Bob, the problem is, you are not distinguishing between the empowering ministry the Lord performs in the Old Testament and the distinct ministry of the Comforter that begins at Pentecost. You simply can't argue with Scripture. The Spirit was foretold to come by the Prophets, and by Christ, yet you are saying He was already there. And the conviction of sin concerning the Comforter is specific to this Age in which the Gospel is revealed to men, meaning...they are enlightened to it, which none of the Old Testament Saints were, nor were His Disciples. Secondly, the conviction of sin certainly went on in the Old Testament, and this was accomplished by the Word of God: Galatians 3:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.And this is the fundamental error of many, and because they do not understand these basic truths...they do not understand the relationship of the Law to the New Covenant believer. Does not Paul teach here that faith which he is preaching...had not come under the Law? Address this Scripture, the point, and the concept Bob, I can't keep addressing the same arguments. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2016 8:07:50 GMT -5
you argue a gospel of "saved but not born again" -- no such gospel in all of scripture - not even at the pre-cross time of John 3. I argue the same Gospel seen in Scripture, Bob. The Gospel of Christ is given in the Prophecy, but it is not until Pentecost the understanding of that Gospel is given. And I argue that men were saved through justification, which was the result of obedience to the revealed will of God. The "regeneration" you are trying to impose into the Old Testament is not the regeneration of the New Covenant. The Spirit of God came upon men for the purpose of empowerment, but that was not the eternal indwelling of the New Covenant. Old Testament Saints received remission of sins through animal sacrifice, but that was not the Atonement of Christ. The Old Testament Saint did not go to Heaven...Christ makes that clear, as does the writer of Hebrews. And all of these are addressed in the study, yet you have not addressed the points raised. Have you read the study, Bob? As I said before, you can copy and paste the points raised in it and address them. Why aren't you doing that? Why aren't you addressing the points raised in this thread? You are simply reiterating the same arguments, expecting me to address them over and over. If you would just address one of these points, that would make me happy. Show... 1. How the Spirit is said not to have been given yet, yet according to you He was; 2. How men can be born again yet not have their sins forgiven; 3. How animal sacrifice equates to the death of Christ; 4. How men were eternally indwelt, yet the Spirit would leave them. Even David recognized this, and pleaded with God not to take His Spirit from him. That is not identical to the eternal indwelling of God. David is asking to be made new again, Bob. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2016 8:30:13 GMT -5
We see in Matt 17 and Luke 9 - Moses and Elijah in glorified forms WITH Christ in his transfigured glorified form - pre-cross ... against which you offer your assumption -- but the Bible says that they did go to heaven - and they are in glorified form. No, Bob, only of Elijah is it said he was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind. And we cannot nullify the Scripture that teaches that men did not go into Heaven prior to the Cross. That is what you are doing. The argument that God can do what He wants is not justified by this singular event, nor do we create a standard based on the event of Elijah being taken up into the sky. His destination, if he was removed from this world...would have been sheol/hades, not Heaven itself. And this has been addressed in detail already, but, here is your chance to address the Scripture again: Hebrews 9:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Entrance into the presence of God in Heaven was not available to men, and this is the type, the figure, the shadow, the parable...of man's entrance to God. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:Christ opened up that way, being the genuine High Priest of man, entering into Heaven itself. Hebrews 10:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;Entrance to Heaven was accomplished by Christ...alone. Elijah was not glorified, so to see either he or Enoch as, in their flesh, going into Heaven...conflicts with what we understand about Heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47-50
King James Version (KJV)
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Yet you say flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God. Despite Paul's lengthy teaching in this chapter. 2 Kings 2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.” But Elisha said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So they went down to Bethel. 3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?” And he said, “Yes, I know; keep silent!” .. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground. 9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” 10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.I see nothing that indicates Elijah is born again or...taken into Heaven, but that he is caught up into heaven, the sky. He may have passed from fleshly to spirit and taken into sheol/hades like it is likely Enoch did, I don't have a problem with that, but, he did not go into Heaven in his physical frame. When Samuel is called up... 1 Samuel 28:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do....we are not given a picture of Samuel being...in Heaven. But sheol/hades. Many have considered that Enoch and Elijah, never having died, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, the idea being that since it is appointed once to man to die, they will come back from Heaven to die at that time. The problem with that theory, though, is that this takes place at the midpoint of the Tribulation, and all of the living believers in Christ will have gone into Heaven after being raptured. But, I get it, Bob. You believe men were given glorified form before Christ, that they went into Heaven despite the numerous indications Scripture gives no man has, and thus they must have been born again. But you have yet to give the first argument that denies the promise of the new birth was not a promise, or that men were born again prior to Pentecost. The best argument to date, in the many debates I have been involved in, is that it must have been available because "Christ wouldn't tell Nicodemus he must be if it were not possible." And this is a weak argument. We also see Christ demand men believe on His death, yet this is not something possible prior to the revelation of the Gospel Mystery. Another point you have not addressed. You need to address the Scripture provided, Bob. I can't keep addressing the same reiterated arguments. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2016 8:39:12 GMT -5
In Romans 3 we have the definition of the sinful nature - proving beyond all doubt that the saints of Hebrews 11 - could not possibly be doing what they did without first being born again. It is not possible according to Romans 3 - for the unregenerate heart to do what we see being done in Hebrews 11. Romans 3 -- All Have Sinned 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c] “The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d] 14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e] 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f] 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.You're kind of missing the fact that in his day...Paul is still saying this is true of men. Your position makes it untrue, not only in Paul's day, but in the day the original statement was made. You're missing the fact that what was available to men in that day was the Law...and no man was justified by the Law. You're missing the fact that it is not the Comforter convicting of sin in that day...but the Law. The next verse dismantles your argument:
Romans 3:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;You are imposing into the Age of Law a concept that defies what Paul teaches in many places. Now is the righteousness of God manifested without the Law. Now, Bob, not then. It was witnessed by the Law and Prophets, even as your proof-text in 1 Peter makes clear, but is now reported, the Gospel preached...which the Holy Ghost sent from Heaven. Here is another passage from the study you have avoided: Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:Until you recognize that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a mystery, you will kick at the goads, my friend. You have to deal with these issues. Set aside your position about men being glorified before Christ, and men going to HEaven prior to Christ opening the way into the Holiest of All (Heaven itself), and deal with the... ...other points. God bless.
|
|