|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 8:14:49 GMT -5
As Paul says in Romans 11 "13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Where else does the Bible say "you stand only by your faith" in the NT except in reference to salvation??? This is clearly salvation. Where else does the Bible say 'they were broken off for their unbelief" in the NT except in the case of salvation and the Gospel? This is clearly a discussion about salvation. The Gentiles stand by faith, which is contrasted with Israel's rejection of Messiah: John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Again, I am not denying that Romans 11 has a context of salvation, I am denying that the unbelievers have salvation, thus the Tree is not salvation, but, like unto the "True Vine" it is the provision of God for relationship with Himself. The "Tree" already existed, and Israel were branches. Think about that Bob...all of Israel is considered to be in that Tree. Now does not Scripture teach that not all of Israel are of Israel? Yet they are branches. Were they saved? Were they believers? Did they have faith? The resounding answer to all of these is...no. So how can one be "in the Tree" and not be a believer? The very way Paul teaches...being of Israel . Admin said : " If we simply state the Tree is salvation, then we have to say equally that those who were cut out were saved, lost their salvation, and are in need of being saved...again. " True but "True...but." Consider it again... " If we simply state the Tree is salvation, then we have to say equally that those who were cut out were saved, lost their salvation, and are in need of being saved...again." How can those who are clearly identified as unbelievers...be saved? THey were cut out because of unbelief, and can only be grafted back in...by believing. one cannot refute that Bible detail by simply saying "I don't prefer that view" or something of that sort. You can hardly call my responses as "simply saying "I don't prefer that view or something of that sort." You are ascribing salvation to a people we see in numerous passages as having rejected Christ. Why? It has be disproven from the text itself Not at all. Nothing in the text gives indication that the natural branches were saved. Nothing. The very opposite is taught beginning in chapter 9. and Romans 11 states clearly that the context is salvation - vs 14. True...but. Yes, Bob, the context is salvific, but, that does not mean the natural branches were saved. Thus it is impossible to impose an understanding of "The Tree" as salvation itself, but rather...it is the provision of God through which salvation comes. Israel falls under the provision of God in a special and specific way, in that they are the People of God created by God as a Witness Nation. Because of that they had relationship with God through His Covenant, but, we also look at the New Covenant promised to this sinful people: Romans 11:26-27
King James Version (KJV)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.Those in view in Romans 11 are those still in need of coming into relationship with God through the True Vine. That is, they are not yet in relationship through the New Covenant. This is when God will "take away their sins," as He has done for us. This is spoken of in the passages speaking about the promise of the New Covenant for Israel. Here is an example: Hebrews 8:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.Now to swing this back to the original context of the discussion, the point to consider is that Israel, though in "The Tree," had not received eternal redemption, nor redemption of their sins which were under the Law: Hebrews 9:12 & 15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.So the point is this: Israel in Romans 11 is the Israel of the First Covenant, who had the provision of that Age, but this was not salvation in the New Covenant sense. THus, to place the branches that were cut out because of unbelief into a position of being saved, then having salvation revoked... ...is not in the text. Nor does it correlate to the rest of Scripture's teachings concerning salvation in Christ and the differences between the Ages which had no revelation of the Gospel Mystery, and this Age, when the Comforter is now revealing that Mystery. Do me a favor, Bob, read the second installment of the study. As I said before, understanding this demands understanding a number of varying issues. The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is an important one to understand. Read the second installment, and if you still want to impose an equal understanding of the Gospel in past Ages, we can talk about it. Okay, have to get going, hope you have a blessed day, and thanks again for the responses. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 27, 2016 8:44:41 GMT -5
As Paul says in Romans 11 "13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Where else does the Bible say "you stand only by your faith" in the NT except in reference to salvation??? This is clearly salvation. Where else does the Bible say 'they were broken off for their unbelief" in the NT except in the case of salvation and the Gospel? This is clearly a discussion about salvation. The Gentiles stand by faith, which is contrasted with Israel's rejection of Messiah: you risk over-simplification since not all gentiles are saved in Romans 11 and not all Jews are lost ... if having a lost jew means no jews are saved by faith - then having a lost gentile means no gentiles are saved by faith. It is an idea that does not work. - Paul claims he is a Jew according to Roman 9 and 11. In fact Paul makes this statement in Romans 4 -- once again including both Jew and gentile under Abraham 'father of the faithful' - And Heb 11 declares OT Jewish saints to be the prime example of salvation by faith among the saints. Romans 49 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “ Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. Heb 11Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 9:13:37 GMT -5
The Gentiles stand by faith, which is contrasted with Israel's rejection of Messiah: you risk over-simplification since not all gentiles are saved in Romans 11 and not all Jews are lost ... That is irrelevant, Bob, we are considering whether those who are unbelievers...were saved. We know there are those of Israel who are saved, starting with Paul himself. But that doesn't nullify that those who were unbelievers were cut out of the Tree, thus the Tree is not salvation itself, because it is a basic error to ascribe salvation to unbelievers. THis is done in a number of passages used to teach loss of salvation. if having a lost jew means no jews are saved by faith - then having a lost gentile means no gentiles are saved by faith. It is an idea that does not work. Again...I never said that. You are creating an irrelevant argument to what has been said. I didn't say "no Jews are saved," lol. So I agree...this "idea" does not work. - Paul claims he is a Jew according to Roman 9 and 11. In fact Paul makes this statement in Romans 4 -- once again including both Jew and gentile under Abraham 'father of the faithful' - Agreed, but irrelevant. I actually said this some posts back, if I remember correctly (running three forums right now so forgive if I am confusing this with another discussion, but I am pretty sure I pointed out Paul's heritage, which is what is in view here and in John 15 (being of Israel by heritage). And Heb 11 declares OT Jewish saints to be the prime example of salvation by faith among the saints. Romans 49 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “ Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. Heb 11Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.There are no Jews mentioned in this section. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. No Jews here either. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.So what are the promises, Bob? That's key to understanding the significance of the difference between those under the Covenant of Law and those who embrace the New Covenant. This is a primary theme of the Book of Hebrews. Identify the promises (and the Writer makes them clear) and you will see the difference between those justified in the Old Testament and those who receive the promises. The next installment of the study will look at Perfection. I've been trying to decide what comes next and finally have decided that is important to the study. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones. Still no Jews. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ... Finally, one we could call a Jew. Though the term was not in use in this day. We can find common ground, though, in that Abraham is the "father of faith." We see faith in men prior to Abraham, but we begin to see the unfolding of the promises of God which begin in Abraham in specificity, and are developed through the Kingdom years. And that goes again to the topic of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. Again, I would ask that you look at the second installment of the study which deals with this issue. There is simply no way to deny that men were not given understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though they were given the Gospel in veiled form. In hindsight we can understand passages like Isaiah 42 and 53, but they did not understand them in the context we do. This is why Peter and the Disciples expected an earthly kingdom when Messiah came. This is why Peter tried to stop Christ from being taken and killed. He simply did not understand that it was necessary that Christ die. Can you imagine, after the Spirit of God revealed the Gospel to him, how he must have felt about trying to stop the Atonement? Men were saved by the Gospel of Christ in the Old Testament, but it was by belief in that which they understood. They knew that God would send Messiah, and when He was come...He would redeem Israel. Their expectation was temporal, our understanding, though, is given insight to the Eternal and spiritual. And really have to get going. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 9:15:26 GMT -5
One last thing for now, in regards to the title of the OP: could you present other arguments for New Birth prior to Pentecost?
God bless.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 27, 2016 19:36:59 GMT -5
The Gentiles stand by faith, which is contrasted with Israel's rejection of Messiah: you risk over-simplification since not all gentiles are saved in Romans 11 and not all Jews are lost ... if having a lost jew means no jews are saved by faith - then having a lost gentile means no gentiles are saved by faith. It is an idea that does not work. - Paul claims he is a Jew according to Roman 9 and 11. In fact Paul makes this statement in Romans 4 -- once again including both Jew and gentile under Abraham 'father of the faithful' - And Heb 11 declares OT Jewish saints to be the prime example of salvation by faith among the saints. Romans 49 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “ Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. Heb 11Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ... And then you later admit that in fact Heb 11 is including Jews, Israel, Patriarchs -- > OT saints. Your solution at first ignores the Heb 11 text saying "32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ..." Then later you admit that this point does not hold - but continue as if your point never really mattered anyway so no matter that it is not correct. ?? I find that confusing. here again - the point remains. As for the promise - before the cross - Heb 11 says it is a "heavenly country" not an earthly one - and it is explicit in the text. In fact - We too wait for that heavenly country - we too are strangers and aliens upon the earth. Thus Paul points out these OT Heb 11 examples are examples for US - " so great a cloud of witnesses" calling us to in like manner " run with endurance" -- to "not lose heart and grow weary" Heb 12. It is in fact the Isaiah 66:23 " New Heavens and New Earth" of Rev 21. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (A city that in Rev 21 in the fullness of the promise - "comes down to earth" -- Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5:5 -- the Gospel teaching of Christ -- pre-cross Yet as 1 Pet 1 points out the OT saints have the "Spirit of Christ IN them" and they speak of the " sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"1 Peter 1 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. The sufferings of Christ were future to their day.... the glories to follow are future even to our day. But this does not mean that none of us are saved! Heb 11 - 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. The point is again - irrefutable. That does not pass the test of scripture in the chapter of Romans 11 where we find that "tree" - Paul is not warning Christians against the danger of "falling or being cut off - from the lost condition". Failing to "remain lost" would be a "good thing" -- not something to be warned against. You are avoiding almost every detail in the chapter in the case or Romans 11. They fall for unbelief - they would be grafted in "again" if they choose to believe. Obviously being in that tree - is the believing condition and choosing unbelief results in the warning that Paul gives in Romans 11. The Romans 11 point is that one can be "believing" can be "saved" - standing only by their faith in what they do know - and then confronted with a choice - can fall ... can enter a condition of unbelief - can then be lost. We see this in Matt 16 - Peter said "you are the Christ - the Son of God" and Christ says "BLESSED are you Peter... My Father revealed that to you". But then later rejects some "new truth" and Christ says "get thee behind me Satan" illustrating the problem with current condition that is later "confronted with another choice" and decides to fail. In Romans 11 -19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again Those in "Stand only by their faith" those being cut off are "cut off for unbelief" -- and those that remain in are in danger of also being cut off of they too failed to "Continue". That point remains. It is irrefutable. and Vs 14 says this is all in the context of "salvation" 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? As Christ points out with John the baptizer -- Paul is not the first Jew ever saved. As we see in Matt 17 with both Moses and Elijah in glorified form - along with Christ - Paul is not the first Jew ever saved. As we see in all of Hebrews 11 speaking of OT saints who are all "by faith" accepted by God -- "and all the prophets" of the OT - Paul is not the first Jew ever saved. This too is irrefutable.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 28, 2016 6:55:59 GMT -5
One last thing for now, in regards to the title of the OP: could you present other arguments for New Birth prior to Pentecost? God bless. John 3 -- Nicodemus - Christ argues that the NEW Birth is OT reality - OT doctrine - OT Gospel - OT teaching. Ps 51 -- when David turns to God in repentance and seeks to be restored - he appeals to the very salvation - Gospel - specifics that you seem to argue are impossible before Pentecost. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. Your main argument has been that these people were not "Once saved always saved" but as we see in Matt 18 and in Romans 11 - neither were NT saints.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 28, 2016 8:32:29 GMT -5
you risk over-simplification since not all gentiles are saved in Romans 11 and not all Jews are lost ... if having a lost jew means no jews are saved by faith - then having a lost gentile means no gentiles are saved by faith. It is an idea that does not work. - Paul claims he is a Jew according to Roman 9 and 11. In fact Paul makes this statement in Romans 4 -- once again including both Jew and gentile under Abraham 'father of the faithful' - And Heb 11 declares OT Jewish saints to be the prime example of salvation by faith among the saints. Romans 49 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “ Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. Heb 11Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ... And then you later admit that in fact Heb 11 is including Jews, Israel, Patriarchs -- > OT saints. Your solution at first ignores the Heb 11 text saying "32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ..." Then later you admit that this point does not hold - but continue as if your point never really mattered anyway so no matter that it is not correct. ?? I find that confusing. here again - the point remains. As for the promise - before the cross - Heb 11 says it is a "heavenly country" not an earthly one - and it is explicit in the text. In fact - We too wait for that heavenly country - we too are strangers and aliens upon the earth. Thus Paul points out these OT Heb 11 examples are examples for US - " so great a cloud of witnesses" calling us to in like manner " run with endurance" -- to "not lose heart and grow weary" Heb 12. It is in fact the Isaiah 66:23 " New Heavens and New Earth" of Rev 21. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (A city that in Rev 21 in the fullness of the promise - "comes down to earth" -- Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5:5 -- the Gospel teaching of Christ -- pre-cross Yet as 1 Pet 1 points out the OT saints have the "Spirit of Christ IN them" and they speak of the " sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"1 Peter 1 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. The sufferings of Christ were future to their day.... the glories to follow are future even to our day. But this does not mean that none of us are saved! Heb 11 - 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. The point is again - irrefutable. That does not pass the test of scripture in the chapter of Romans 11 where we find that "tree" - Paul is not warning Christians against the danger of "falling or being cut off - from the lost condition". Agreed: there is no warning given for those cut out, it is a simple statement...they were cut out because they were unbelievers: Romans 11
King James Version (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Right there, Bob, we see they never attained to that which they sought after...righteousness. This points to the time when salvation in Christ became available, and Israel did not receive it (only a remnant, which is the historical pattern among Israel): Romans 10
King James Version (KJV)
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.11:7 is the concluding statement to his statement here. You are imposing something for them that isn't there, that they were saved. And you are missing Paul's distinction concerning them as being Israel. You create a syllogism in Romans 11 which leads to a conclusion based on erroneous premise. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.Go back to v.7 and you see the Election obtained righteousness, Israel, who sought to establish their own righteousness did not, and...they are given a spirit of slumber...unto this day. Since we know that Gentile Inclusion began at Pentecost with the establishment of the New Covenant, we can narrow Paul's statement to this Age. Israel was given this spirit of slumber then, this is not a historical account of what took place prior to Gentile Inclusion. And nowhere in Romans 9-11 does Paul even hint that Israel obtained that which the Gentiles received through believing, whereby they stand by faith in those things by which righteousness is obtained (which is simply believing). 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.This is not speaking of people who are saved, it is speaking about the enemies of David, which prophetically extends to the enemies of Christ: Psalm 69:22-28
King James Version (KJV)
22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.The same group is in view, the enemies of Christ, yet you say... ...they were saved? Believers? Just not in the text, Bob. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.Again we can mark the point in time in view, that is, the time Gentile Inclusion begins. It is at this point that the natural branches are cut out of the Tree, and they are without question unbelievers. Not believers who have fallen, that is not in the text. And the warning is given to Gentiles, not individual believers, the point being, "You Gentiles obtained that which Israel sought to establish and did not, thus were they cut out. If you Gentiles also become unbelieving, you will be cut out as well. If Israel becomes believing, they will be grafted back in. And there is a day when the spirit of slumber will be lifted, and all Israel will be saved." So we cannot, cannot, cannot...impose a condition of salvation on those who were cut out, not when Paul gives us three chapters telling us that isn't the case. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 28, 2016 8:52:07 GMT -5
Failing to "remain lost" would be a "good thing" -- not something to be warned against. Your premise is imagined, Bob, there is no warning given to those cut out, because they were cut in the condition they were always in. You just can't read Romans 9-11 and conclude Israel that is cut out, the natural branches...were saved. And we understand the Tree to be specific to Israel...because the members of Israel are the ones cut out. You are creating a scenario where the natural branches were saved, then cut out because they fell. Not the case. Then, you try to use the faithful of Hebrews 11 correlate to these branches when they do not. They correlate to the Remnant, not those who did not, and never did...obtain the righteousness needed. They did not even obtain the righteousness they sought to establish. You are avoiding almost every detail in the chapter in the case or Romans 11. On the contrary, Bob, I have given detailed address of every point you have made, yet you have not addressed all the points I have raised. They fall for unbelief - they would be grafted in "again" if they choose to believe. This is true, but, again we see they were in the tree despite...never believing. You need to understand this... Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.And when you get to Hebrews 11, you can understand that in a consistent Soteriology. A promise was made (the New Covenant and its associated elements), and neither the believing (faithful) nor the unbelieving (unfaithful)...received the promise/s. They were not made perfect (complete). So too, in John 15, in view is their heritage as Israel. Prior to Christ coming, the Tree was Israel (this is why the natural branches are specified as members of Israel, and nowhere are the "natural branches" believers), and relationship with God was through them. But Christ teaches, "I am the True Vine," which is to say, the true means of relationship with God. It is a call to shed heritage, and embrace Christ when He is fully revealed with the establishment of the New Covenant. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 28, 2016 9:02:05 GMT -5
Obviously being in that tree - is the believing condition and choosing unbelief results in the warning that Paul gives in Romans 11. Nothing in the text/s to support that view. It is a syllogistic conclusion which is actually refuted by Paul. And as I said, this is the case with every proof-text that those who teach salvation can be "lost" or "walked away from." They erroneously impose a condition of salvation upon those clearly shown to be unbelievers. The false teachers of 2 Peter 2 is another good example. The rejecters of the New Covenant in Hebrews 10:26 is another. The natural branches are Israel, that is clearly pointed out in Romans 11, and no-one... ...was saved simply because they were born of Israel. No-one. The Romans 11 point is that one can be "believing" can be "saved" - standing only by their faith in what they do know - and then confronted with a choice - can fall ... can enter a condition of unbelief - can then be lost. Sorry, no. Two groups in Romans 11, Israel...and Gentiles. Israel is the natural branches cut out because of unbelief, the Gentiles Paul writes to are those who have been saved under different conditions than those which Israel had. We see Israel is not saved because Paul's desire is for his countrymen to be saved. We see they set about to establish their own righteousness, and did not obtain it. Yet you are saying they did. That they were believers and then fell, thus were cut out. Just not in there, Bob. Now carefully look at the following statement Paul makes about Israel: Romans 9:30-33
King James Version (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.You are making believers out of those who are not believers, they are men clearly defined as seeking after righteousness by the works of the Law, which also distinguishes the Two Ages (of Law and Grace) from each other. And the focal point of their error is the coming of Christ. They were cut out because they rejected Christ, this is simply a Basic Bible principle set forth in many places. You are not going to change unbelievers into believers and establish a proof-text for loss of salvation, my friend. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 28, 2016 9:30:04 GMT -5
We see this in Matt 16 - Peter said "you are the Christ - the Son of God" and Christ says "BLESSED are you Peter... My Father revealed that to you". And this is touched on in the first installment of the study. You did read it, didn't you Bob? Note that Peter's understanding is... 1. Revealed by the Father, it isn't something he concludes on his own; 2. Is specific to the truth that Jesus was the Christ, the long-awaited Messiah. Point two is relevant when we consider whether Peter was actually trusting in Christ for salvation. But then later rejects some "new truth" and Christ says "get thee behind me Satan" "Rejects some new truths?" Bob...Peter rejects the very Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is evident: Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.You minimize the importance of this. And it is key to understanding the New Testament and the establishment of the New Covenant. illustrating the problem with current condition that is later "confronted with another choice" and decides to fail. No-one "decided to fail," it was simply not given to Peter to understand the Gospel Mystery. It just isn't revealed to men in that Age. Christ's Ministry falss within the Age of Law. In Romans 11 -19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again Those in "Stand only by their faith" those being cut off are "cut off for unbelief" -- And they were never...believers. That is what you are imposing into the text to create a loss of salvation teaching. and those that remain in are in danger of also being cut off of they too failed to "Continue". The point always made in regards to the Law is "Don't continue in it." I would say you have that reversed but the case is that in the case of Israel, they were not to "continue," but to go on unto perfection which is found in the New Covenant. Look at your statement, Bob, and consider it: do you really believe Scripture teaches that Israel was to continue in that which they were under and how they performed it? Were they to continue in the Law? Were they to continue to go about seeking righteousness through the works of the Law? C'mon Bob. Not at all. The point is syllogism built on premises not to be found in Romans 9-11, and are in fact refuted by what is stated by Paul in those chapters. I know you think so at this point, but I think if you give not only the study, but the points being made in this thread some consideration, you will cede the point. Wishful thinking, I know, but, you have got to see the reason in this simple point: those cut out are defined by Paul as Israel who is contrasted with the faithful of the Old Testament...the Remnant. You are erroneously ascribing a condition of salvation which is refuted by Paul in Ch.11 as well as the previous two. Just read 9-11 and grasp the fuller context of what he is saying, and you will see this is the case. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 28, 2016 9:36:29 GMT -5
and Vs 14 says this is all in the context of "salvation" I agree... Romans 11:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them....but what you are missing is that they were in need of salvation, not that they had lost it, lol. How many times can a man be saved, Bob? Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.We are set apart unto God once (for all is an insertion), and those set apart are made perfect...for ever. What that means, in the context of Hebrews 9-10, is that when we are forgiven, our sins are taken away, unlike the Old TEstament Saints under Law, who's sins were not taken away, which is the perfection (completion) in view here. And that is the promise God gave Israel: Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.That is the context the Writer quotes this passage in. That men can be saved then have "forgiveness revoked" absolutely nullifies the very promise of God. Were you aware you were doing that, Bob? Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 28, 2016 9:52:59 GMT -5
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. Again, Paul's desire is to save them. The corollary being...they were never saved. Reiterated by Paul many times. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? They had no life because they did not have Christ. As Christ points out with John the baptizer -- Paul is not the first Jew ever saved. When I said "...beginning with Paul" I was referring to Romans 11, not saying Paul was the first Jew saved, lol. But nowhere doe we see John said to be saved, but that he was the greatest among those born among men, and note carefully... ...John is distinguished from those in the Kingdom of God. Think about that, Bob, and you will see that in view is a distinction between the conditions John, and those before him were under, and those who enter the Kingdom of God under New Covenant conditions. As we see in Matt 17 with both Moses and Elijah in glorified form They are not in glorified form, Bob, they are simply said to be seen in glory. Christ is the Firstborn from the dead, meaning He is the first one to be raised...never to die physically again. This has been addressed in detail already. The responses have been nothing but reiteration of your belief they had been glorified. - along with Christ - Paul is not the first Jew ever saved. Never said he was. The context was concerning Romans 11. As we see in all of Hebrews 11 speaking of OT saints who are all "by faith" accepted by God -- And they did not receive the promise/s. The promise included the taking away of sins, and the indwelling Spirit off God. Still promise on the Day of Ascension, as Acts 1:4-8 shows clearly. "and all the prophets" of the OT - Paul is not the first Jew ever saved. All of the Prophets of the Old Testament are equated to john the Baptist, and none of them are considered equated to those who enter the Kingdom of God. Just think about that, Bob. Okay, you see it as refutable. If you could address my refutation, lol, then perhaps we might agree on this assertion. Okay, thanks for the responses, I will get to the other post as time allows. Have to get going, but have enjoyed it. The singular point I would ask you to consider is the error of attributing those of Israel as having been saved and then cut out. I think you can come to understand this simply by reading Romans 9-11 in prayerful study. Again, the "tree" of Romans 11 refers to Israel nationally, being the provision for relationship with God given them under Law. In view is the fact that they are cut out of relationship with God, and Gentiles grafted in. Gentiles are not grafted into Israel, both are made one in Christ. Thus, to make the "Tree" salvation is a fundamental error taught by many, many groups. And understanding that error is simple, we need just to keep Romans 11 in its proper context with Romans, and what the Word of God teaches as a whole. Not one person was saved through the Law, that is not why it was established. Paul makes it clear many times that by the works of the Law...shall no flesh be justified. The Just of Hebrews 11 were just that...justified by faith. This too is basic in our understanding of salvation as it unfolds throughout Biblical History. The benefits of the New Covenant were not bestowed under the Law, and the True Bread (the means of eternal life) was not available until Christ came from Heaven. Again, consider carefully the following statement of Hebrews: Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.The Old Testament Saint awaited redemption, did not receive the promise/s, and were not made perfect. When you understand the accomplishment of Christ in its magnitude, you will better understand your own salvation, Bob, this I promise. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 29, 2016 9:13:56 GMT -5
One last thing for now, in regards to the title of the OP: could you present other arguments for New Birth prior to Pentecost? God bless. John 3 -- Nicodemus - Christ argues that the NEW Birth is OT reality - On the contrary, Christ simply speaks to Nicodemus as to how men enter the Kingdom of God, which is that they must be born from above, and, this is immediately defined as being born of the Spirit, which is synonymous with being born of God, and born again (which is shy I believe the KJV Translators translated it this way, it shows their understanding of the passage). It is true that the New Birth is spoken about in the Old Testament, which is why the Lord rebukes Nicodemus, a/the Teacher of Israel, for responding to His statement with... John 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?Note Nicodemus' statement that God is "with" Him, and his response to Christ's Own statement. That Nicodemus has a physical birth in view, and is in no way understanding Christ's statement as a Teacher knowledgeable in Prophecy would be expected to be is evident in Nicodemus' statement as well as the Lord's rebuke. I have seen commentary that places Nicodemus' response to a context which speaks to a man "starting over," so that Nicodemus' response begs the question "How can one as established in Religion as myself start over?" That still does not change the fact... ...Nicodemus' response is purely physical, missing entirely the meaning of Christ's statement. Immediately he should have called to mind this passage: Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.And seeing it is a physical context Nicodemus receives Christ's statement, at the very least he should have considered Ezekiel 37... Ezekiel 37
King James Version (KJV)
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.But look at his response again:
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?There is incredulity at the concept of being born again after becoming old, and a man being physically born again, which prompts the mention of entering the womb again and being born. All of that to make this point, Bob: Nicodemus' understanding is physical. Secondly, I would point out that if we fail to keep in our studies the singular important truth that the Gospel of Christ was at this point a Mystery, we will also fail to understand the Kingdom Nicodemus was privy to and how that is significant to this discussion. The Kingdom Israel was aware of was the Kingdom promised by God, which even after many parables about it, not even the Disciples clearly understood. They expected the Kingdom to be established immediately, not that at this time Christ would die for the sins of men, return to Heaven, and then at a future date return to establish that earthly Kingdom. WHich, because of the revelation provided by the New TEstament Writers, we know as the Millennial Kingdom. Now let's return to the conversation:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.First, Christ defines being "born from above" as being born of water and of the Spirit. John prophesied that Christ would Baptize with Spirit, as opposed to the water he used for his baptism of repentance. While many view the water to be a reference to physical birth, we can say with certainty that being born of God has nothing to do with physical water, but the Word of God: We see the cleansing effect of the Word of God in these following passages: John 15:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Ephesians 5:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,We see it specifically stated we are born again and born of God by the Word: 1 Peter 1:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
James 1:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.And not one passage dealing with regeneration mentions water.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.The simple truth we understand about this conversation is that Christ is ministering to Nicodemus within the framework of the revelation Nicodemus had available to him, which would be summed up as Christ telling him "Unless one is born of God he cannot enter into that Kingdom promised to Israel." Nothing the Lord states has anything to do with being physically born, because it is a moot point: is it really necessary that the Lord make it clear one would have to be born at all in order to enter the Kingdom of God? Think about that" "Well, Nicodemus, the first thing that has to happen, is a man must be born into the world through childbirth, then...he must be born of the Spirit." No, the first thing that has to happen, and we see this in salvation in Christ, is that a man must hear the Word of God, and through faith in that Word he is born of God, thus becoming a son. This is simply the pattern followed by everyone that is born again. And how does a man come to understand the Word, and how does he hear it? John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;Back to the conversation:
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.We know also that physical child-birth is not in view, because the Lord here distinguishes between the two. You cannot make being physically born and being born of God the same thing when Christ distinguishes them as two different things. And nowhere in the text does He say you must be born of the flesh and born of the Spirit, but born of water and the Spirit. That the water is not physical birth is made clear here, and this is in response to Nicodemus' statement of entering the mother's womb again and being born a second time. We see Nicodemus is without understanding in Christ's next statement: 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.And we see another compelling reason why physical birth is not in view in the next statement: 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.This simply states...being born of God cannot be witnessed by the eye, no more than people see the wind. We can see physical birth, and we can see someone water baptized. But we cannot witness being born of God.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?Nicodemus is clearly...clueless. And he should not have been. Now, if, as you say, New Birth was an Old Testament reality... ...don't you think this Teacher of Israel would have understood it? But it was not a reality, it is clearly promise correlated to a work God would do in the future. Christ will go on to correlate the New Birth to His death... 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.We see the Lord begin to elaborate on the promises given by God to Israel, and again, because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery, not previously revealed in past Ages, but hidden, we can understand Nicodemus' failure to properly understand what Christ is teaching. But, we cannot understand a failure in Born Again believers in this Age, to whom the Mystery has been revealed to. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 29, 2016 9:51:36 GMT -5
Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament. Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament. Yes, it was taught and promised in the Old Testament. Ps 51 -- when David turns to God in repentance and seeks to be restored - he appeals to the very salvation - Gospel - specifics that you seem to argue are impossible before Pentecost. The following is not an appeal to the Gospel. David has no understanding of the Gospel Mystery in a New Testament context. And let's look at the elements of David's plea, and see how distinct they are from the reality of salvation in Christ: 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, He is still awaiting the New Heart. One does get a new heart over and over, not in a context of regeneration. And renew a steadfast spirit within me. The "spirit" requested is in regards to David's intentional and practical life. This is not the spirit of David, but more in the vein of a spirit such as a "spirit of slumber." And again...he is requesting this, and while God did minister to the spirits of men then, in view is not the new spirit of regeneration which is privy to the promises and results that accompany new birth. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence Kind of conflicts with New Testament teachings concerning salvation in Christ, does it not? John 6:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.Born again believers who echo David's plea here...simply refute Christ's own teaching. He said He would in no wise cast out those given Him of the Father. And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Again, we see the Old Testament Ministry of the Spirit of God, which while similar, is not the Minsitry Christ taught the Conforter would perform in this Age. Simply put, the born again believer who is echoing David's plea here...simply does not understand salvation in Christ at all. They do not understand the Eternal Indwelling of God under New Covenant Provision (which is a promise to the Old Testament Saint but not a reality until the Spirit is sent: John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 14:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.(and I am trying to find a good color for cross references, Bob, so bear with me) Above, we see that there is a distinction between the Spirit's Ministry in the Old Testament and the specific distinctions Christ makes concerning the coming of the Comforter. This too, if confused, will lead to erroneous conclusion and confusion among Bible Students. And we see this in most groups. Had a visit from some Jehovah Witnesses some weeks back who admitted they did not know what it means to be born again. And we ask, "How can it be, if Christ stated no man will enter the Kingdom of God except he be born again, born of the Spirit...that so many have no clue?" Wouldn't we think this would be Priority One for those who teach and those seeking to enter the Kingdom of God? Let's look at David's plea again, which you say indicates he was born again: And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Bob, do you really think God would undo His Eternal Indwelling? Do you also pray to God and say, "Lord...please do not desert me?" David understood, it seems, that God would depart from those He came upon then. We see this in the example of King Saul: 1 Samuel 16:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
1 Samuel 18:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 And Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, and was departed from Saul.Are we not told by Christ (see above again) and the Apostle Paul...He will not do this? Ephesians 1:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.Note above, Bob... 1. They were saved after hearing the Gospel, the Word of Truth (born of water); 2. They were sealed with the Promised Spirit; 3. That sealing with the Promised Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance until our redemption (from this cursed world); 4. The Promised Spirit...was promised. So we look for when He was promised and try to distinguish when the promise was fulfilled, and seeing that Christ Himself teaches concerning this promise, and tells us when it is to be fulfilled... Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence....we would think this would be fairly simple to pinpoint and identify. And it really is. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation Can the salvation in view be anything other than the salvation enjoyed by the Old Testament Saints? But do we equate it to the salvation taught in Scripture to be obtained by Christ Himself, and was but promise in the Old Testament? No, that is the mistake most make. Ignored are some simple truths, such as they still awaited the Atonement, they still awaited the Promised Spirit, and they still awaited Messiah Himself. And sustain me with a willing spirit. Still no indication that David was born again, quite the opposite, that He was in need of regeneration. If David was born again, then what we have in this plea is a request to be born again...again. A concept never associated with the one-time event through which we are made New Creatures indwelt eternally by God. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And what did he teach them? That Christ died for their sins, and that by believing that He is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He died and arose again that we might be forgiven and brought into eternal union with God Himself? No, He only prophesied that this would one day take place. He prophesied the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and few make the mistake of placing the fulfillment...into the Old Testament Eras. Not when asked directly. But, they do so when they attribute the Old Testament Saint with having received the promises given through these prophecies. And sinners will be converted to You. And sinners were converted through the Word of God, but that conversion is not equal to conversion under New Covenant conditions. You can't put the fulfillment of what was only promise, stated specifically not to have been received by them...into the Old Testament. Your main argument has been that these people were not "Once saved always saved" That is absolutely correct, though, to be more precise, in the context of this discussion... ...they were never saved at all. Not in the same way we are saved under the New Covenant. They were saved from the eternal perspective, meaning that their eternal destiny was assured through Justification by faith, but, there are numerous differences which distinguish the member of the Church in this Age with the member of the Household of Faith in the Old Testament. They all died...not having received the promises. That's important, Bob. but as we see in Matt 18 and in Romans 11 - neither were NT saints. On the contrary, as shown in the previous posts, you are imposing into those who were cut out a condition they never possessed, that is... ...that they were "saved" because they were in the Tree, which you assume to be salvation. You are making unbelievers...believers. That is incorrect. They were cut out of the Tree specifically because they were unbelievers, Bob. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 30, 2016 7:02:55 GMT -5
Sorry, Bob, I missed these, thought they were part of previous conversation. you risk over-simplification since not all gentiles are saved in Romans 11 and not all Jews are lost ... if having a lost jew means no jews are saved by faith - then having a lost gentile means no gentiles are saved by faith. It is an idea that does not work. - Paul claims he is a Jew according to Roman 9 and 11. In fact Paul makes this statement in Romans 4 -- once again including both Jew and gentile under Abraham 'father of the faithful' - And Heb 11 declares OT Jewish saints to be the prime example of salvation by faith among the saints. Romans 49 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “ Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. Heb 11Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ... And then you later admit that in fact Heb 11 is including Jews, Israel, Patriarchs -- > OT saints. The point was primarily that Hebrews 11 is not, like Romans 11, distinguishing specifically between Jew and Gentile. That is important to understanding Romans 11. If we do not understand that National context we are not going to understand what Paul is saying. That leads directly back to the point that Israel is the group in the Tree, and that Gentiles are not. And since men were not saved by being members of Israel...the Tree cannot be salvation. It is, as I said at the beginning, the provision of God for relationship with Himself. Your solution at first ignores the Heb 11 text saying "32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, ..." Then later you admit that this point does not hold - but continue as if your point never really mattered anyway so no matter that it is not correct. ?? I find that confusing. here again - the point remains. Not sure how I admitted a point did not hold. The primary thrust of Hebrews 11 is that these all...died in faith not receiving the promise/s. As for the promise - before the cross - Heb 11 says it is a "heavenly country" not an earthly one - and it is explicit in the text. In fact - We too wait for that heavenly country - we too are strangers and aliens upon the earth. Thus Paul points out these OT Heb 11 examples are examples for US - " so great a cloud of witnesses" calling us to in like manner " run with endurance" -- to "not lose heart and grow weary" Heb 12. This is a good point to consider, because we see some parallels drawn among the faithful. While we are all strangers and pilgrims, though, we, you and I Bob, have received the promise/s, and that by being made "perfect," or, "complete" in Christ. Abraham "received the promise" when it was given to him, we receive the promise because it is fulfilled. Another example we can see is the "rest" the unfaithful did not enter into to, which we who have believed have entered into: Hebrews 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.The "rest" Israel" entered into was physical, it was a physical land. The Rest we enter into in Christ is heavenly, and while we have not entered into Heaven, we have, again, been made complete. The Old Testament Saint was not, not without us: Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.And you actually give another example of this in your next quote: It is in fact the Isaiah 66:23 " New Heavens and New Earth" of Rev 21. There is no "Isaiah 66:23 new heavens and earth of Revelation 21." Two entirely different things are spoken of. Isaiah gives insight into the Millennial Kingdom, whereas John reveals the new heavens and earth that are created when this universe passes away and is recreated. In Isaiah we see long life and the end of enmity between man and animals, and between animals themselves, whereas these issues are irrelevant to the Eternal State. And just as the Promise/s of God were understood from a temporal and physical perspective on the part of the Old Testament Saint, even so most of their understanding was physical. This is why the disciples were sorrowful over the Lord's death and departure. They did not understand His Work from an eternal perspective and a perspective understanding man's separation from God. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (A city that in Rev 21 in the fullness of the promise - "comes down to earth" -- Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5:5 -- the Gospel teaching of Christ -- pre-cross Sorry, but they did not seek the heavenly country of the Eternal State. They sought a physical country, which is contrasted with the countries they left. There was no revelation of the Eternal State for the Old Testament Saint. They had foundational teachings, first principles, not the more complete revelation we have, whereby we can distinguish between the Millennial Kingdom which they did look to (and this was hoped for in stages, first Abraham gaining a country, then Israel being restored to a restored kingdom, now, though unknown to Israel, looking to that Theocracy in the Millennial Kingdom {though I believe we ourselves will reside in New Jerusalem during this time, which shall descend in the new heavens and earth), then ultimately the new havens and earth (Eternal State). The physical country was an "heavenly" country because it was built by God. He sent them there and established it: Psalm 80:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.This is the country built by God. Many call Israel a "chosen nation," but it more proper to say they are a created nation. Again...Christ is the True Vine. Yet as 1 Pet 1 points out the OT saints have the "Spirit of Christ IN them" and they speak of the " sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"1 Peter 1 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. The sufferings of Christ were future to their day.... the glories to follow are future even to our day. But this does not mean that none of us are saved! And I make it clear in the study...the Old Testament Saints were saved. But they were not made complete, Bob. We have something they did not have. I gave a list earlier, and you addressed three points on it I think, and in doing so I think you missed the forest for the trees, lol. While they were saved, they were not born again. Can a man not have the Spirit and be born again? Some think they can, and divide salvation as meaning one can be saved but not Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which is the moment when we receive the Spirit sent on Pentecost, Who performs in a manner Christ makes clear was not performed in the Old Testament. And this passage has already been addressed: 1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.And if I remember correctly, both times you left off v.12, which states they did not minister these things to themselves... ...why not? Because they were not available to them. We see Peter make it clear that they are now reported among us by those who preach/ed the Gospel unto us with the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven. That is the Comforter Christ taught about. It is distinct to this Age, and was not ministered in the Old Testament. It was the Spirit of Christ in them, to be sure, for Christ is God, and all Scripture is God breathed. We would not separate Messianic Prophecy from that. Heb 11 - 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. The point is again - irrefutable. I don't really see a point, Bob. And I see nothing that detracts from the points of the study. The Old Testament Saint did not receive the promises as we do, they were in fact perfected at the time of the Cross. Continually the Writer of Hebrews contrasts those under Law with those under the New Covenant. Here is another such contrast... Under Law:Hebrews 12:18-24
King James Version (KJV)
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)Under Grace: 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.The "spirits of just men made perfect" are...the Old Testament Saints. We are the Church of the Firstborn. And while we will be One Fold with One Shepherd, we cannot ignore the distinction made between the two...over and over. The Promise/s of God were given in the Old Testament, and received through the establishing of the New, that is simply a basic truth which should under-gird our understanding of the New Testament. God bless.
|
|