|
Post by bobryan on May 25, 2016 21:20:57 GMT -5
In Romans 11 - 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
So what is the tree, Bob? Salvation? This is used by many to teach loss of salvation, and that is simply not what Paul is teaching. Where else does the Bible say "you stand only by your faith" in the NT???
This is clearly salvation.
Where else does the Bible say 'they were broken off for their unbelief" in the NT except in the case of salvation and the Gospel?
This is clearly a discussion about salvation.
As Paul says in Romans 11 "13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 6:54:19 GMT -5
So what is the tree, Bob? Salvation? This is used by many to teach loss of salvation, and that is simply not what Paul is teaching. Where else does the Bible say "you stand only by your faith" in the NT???
It is an oft repeated theme. While we do not nullify grace when we speak of faith alone, salvation is indisputably by grace through faith. And in Romans 11, in view is Israel from a national perspective. It isn't any different than the Writer of Hebrews desiring to convince his countrymen to embrace the New Covenant. This is clearly salvation. I would agree with that, Bob, but there is a deeper aspect to "The Tree" than salvation alone. Those of Israel were in the Tree, and they were cut out. This then cannot be salvation in Christ that is in view...because salvation in Christ is a one-time event that results in the New Birth which is accompanied by the eternal indwelling Spirit of God, which is the guarantee of our (ultimate)redemption. Where else does the Bible say 'they were broken off for their unbelief" in the NT except in the case of salvation and the Gospel? While it doesn't do it in the past tense, that is precisely what Christ is speaking of here: John 15
King James Version (KJV)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.While salvation is in view, this does not attribute salvation to the natural branches who were cut out because they were unbelievers. The "Tree" is the provision of God afforded Israel under the Law. The context of Romans 11 begins here: Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.Paul states...
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.We can see that it is faith, not the works of the Law, which was required, same as in Romans 11. Romans 10
King James Version (KJV)
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)Again, we see that faith, which by extension evidences belief...stands alone. It is contrasted with the righteousness they sought, and Paul makes it very clear that he desires them to be saved. We are saved by grace through...faith. And the faith is specific to Christ: 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.And when we get to Romans 11, we see the branches were cut out of the Tree...because of unbelief. So again, the Tree is not salvation, but the provision of God. This provision reaches back into History and speaks of the provision of relationship with God for Israel, which cannot be dismissed. Israel was the created Witness Nation, the People of God, and in that respect set apart from the world. The Church is the result of the provision in this Age, comprised of those who abide in the True Vine, as opposed to those who used to abide in the Vine which was Israel.
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.Again, we take into consideration that the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed in past Ages. So we do not equate this Age of revelation to those that precede it. But...that does not excuse those who were privy to the revelation they were given. Under Law...they were to be in obedience to the Law in faith. They were to be obedient to the Word preached in that day, which was primarily physical in nature, this cannot be disputed. This is the Tree, Bob. It is specific to Israel. Those who are cut out for unbelief in Romans 11 are of Israel. Those who are grafted in are among the Gentiles. While we see salvation prior to the revelation of the Gospel Mystery, and in fact see that even Gentiles could be saved, we do not see Scripture teaching that Israel was saved just because...they were of Israel. Nor do we see that Gentiles who were without Law were automatically condemned. What saved both in that Age was the same thing that saves men today...faith. Faith in the Word given by God. Today, there is specificity concerning fe in the Person and Work of Christ. That is why the Writer of Hebrews warns not to lay again a foundational faith in God, but to move on to that which has been made complete in Christ: Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.The "therefore" refers to the Hebrews' ignorance of the First Principles of the Oracles of God, further defined in 6:1 as the Principles of the Doctrine of Christ, which is what is in view. The Old Testament provided the First Principles, the Hebrews are exhorted to go on unto that which is complete. He explains what he means by complete in contrasting the understanding provided under Law (and prior Ages) with the fulfillment Christ brings to those issues. To name a few, we would consider His High Priesthood (which he begins to speak of when he stops and rebukes them for their laziness in regards to the Word of God), remission of sins, which was incomplete under the Law (animal sacrifices in general) but made complete in Christ's death, entrance into the presence of God, the Tabernacle, et cetera. No different in Romans 11. In view is not born again believers losing their salvation, it is those of Israel who have not believed (received) Christ. Again, this is the same concept provided in John 15, and if you take note, not one of the disciples "abided" in a context of remaining faithful to Christ. Peter would take up a word to keep Christ from the Cross, then, having failed to maintain his understanding of what Christ would be and do (a physical man who would establish a physical Kingdom), he denies he even knows the Lord. This is clearly a discussion about salvation. As Paul says in Romans 11 "13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/font] [/quote] It is, but you are missing that which precedes salvation, which is the focus of the "tree" itself. Those who were in need of salvation were just that... ...in need of salvation. If we simply state the Tree is salvation, then we have to say equally that those who were cut out were saved, lost their salvation, and are in need of being saved...again. And this makes a caricature of salvation in Christ, which, as I noted earlier, results, in this Age, in regeneration accompanied by the eternal indwelling of the Spirit of God. It is an improper understanding of Romans 11. Those of Israel were not cut out of salvation in Christ, they were cut out of the provision of God, which was for them relationship with God through the Law. The Covenant of Law, though, having been abrogated, is no longer a means of relationship. Now consider carefully, Bob: when Christ states "I am the True Vine," what He is saying is that He is the true means of relationship with God. Not heritage, not the Covenant of Law, not the keeping of the works of the Law. This relationship is eternal and spiritual, giving unto those that were dead in trespasses and sins eternal life. That eternal life is a result, not of a substance called eternal life being poured into someone, but because the Source of eternal life takes up residence in them: John 14:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 7:03:54 GMT -5
have not yet figured out how to cut and paste snip - quotes on this board - so I have to post one at a time. Sorry if that is inconvenient -- I still don't have the hang of it for this board. Its pretty much like any other board, just highlight, right-click copy and paste (or control/C and control/V). I usually copy the timestamp code and insert it before each section. Then follow each section with the end code for quote ( {/QUOTE} - parenthesis changed to brackets to keep code function from working). Some of the forums have a new feature that allows you to highlight something from a quote and reply/quote, which is pretty cool, but it doesn't allow it for the quotes within the posts, which makes it more difficult. BB doesn't have the simple "QUOTE" function in their controls, so sometimes it takes a lot of time, even with the convenience of the auto reply/quote. If you have any questions, let me know. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 7:20:24 GMT -5
No, Bob, we don't see "forgiveness revoked" that is in a context of Eternal Redemption. Ezekiel 18 is purely physical, and is within the framework of the Covenant of Law. The demand for obedience and it's reward, and the consequences of failing to keep the Covenant result, not in eternal life or punishment, but physical. Under the Law men were put to death...physically. And I would point out to you... Ezekiel 18:29-32
King James Version (KJV)
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Indeed we do see forgiveness revoked in Ezek 18 -
What we see, lol, is a call to repent of sin so that one does not die: Ezekiel 18
King James Version (KJV)
1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Note the proverb, it is a fallacious claim of God being unjust, and God makes it clear that men are responsible for the consequences of their sin. It's pretty simple under Law: obey and live, disobey and die. The "soul" in view is not the immaterial aspect of man's existence, it is simply referring to the person himself. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.At the end of this chapter they will be told... 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.If you equate that to... Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them....then not only are you equating the Law to the New Covenant, you are conflicting with numerous New TEstament texts that make it clear men cannot be justified by the works of the Law, which is precisely what God is commanding here. Again, we see they are told... 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God....this is man walking in his statutes according to his ability, whereas this is distinct from the New Covenant promise (which no-one under Law received:
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.What you are doing Bob is presenting a case for justification through the works of the Law rather than faith. The command here is within the framework of the Law, it is temporal, and does not imply that eternal life can be obtained through the works of the Law. The Law was only temporary... Galatians 3:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.And we see that the Promise is not associated with the Law, which is what would be the case if Ezekiel 18 had an eternal context. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 7:47:39 GMT -5
as it pertains to eternal life - There is no eternal context within the framework of the Law. The eternal context was hidden from men. That is why men did not understand Isaiah 53 in an eternal context, for example. because in Ezek 18 all of the wicked die - They die physically, and while this may extend to eternal punishment for some, or perhaps maybe even many of them (seeing Christ taught a many/few ratio in regards to salvation), we do not ignore that physical death is what is presented in the Old Testament. Consider Uzzah, who thought he did a good work to reach out and steady the Ark of the Covenant: he was put to death. Does that mean he will suffer eternal separation? I think it would be foolish to assume that. If he does, it will not be because he did something that was out of concern for the Ark (though idolatry might be implied, lol). How about Ananias and Sapphira, eternally separated? I don't assume that, but, I do see that the basic principle that death is the penalty for sin (in both a physical and spiritual sense) was exacted upon these two, just as we see those who partake of Communion unworthily die. and none of the righteous die - Not in the text, Bob, which is clear that anyone that transgresses...dies:
Ezekiel 18
King James Version (KJV)
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.There is no division of righteous and unrighteous, but a simple teaching within the framework of the Covenant of Law: obey and live, disobey and die. An eternal context is imposed, and while it makes for a great toe-stepping sermon for those who are confused about salvation on an eternal basis, it is error to preach that keeping the works of the Law ever saved anyone on an eternal basis, which is what you do if you impose an eternal context into this: Galatians 2:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.this is only true in the context of eternal redemption. There is no eternal context to be found in Ezekiel 18. If this is true then, then it is still true today, which means that men can still be in obedience to the Covenant of Law and be saved. Do you believe that is true? It does not work any other way. There is no "other way" in view, we are simply seeing the Word of God given to men under Law. The context is one in which Israel stands in judgment for her sin. God's simple point is "Quit whining, the Law is very clear...obey and live, disobey and die." And sin is precisely why they would die. They would be taken captive, slaughtered, and enslaved to invading countries. Israel had failed to keep the Covenant: Hebrews 8:7-12King James Version (KJV) 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.[/font] Now read Ezekiel and distinguish between Ezekiel 18 and the promise of the New Covenant. Is the New Covenant built upon men keeping the Law? Are we called to obey this... Ezekiel 18
King James Version (KJV)
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God....in order to obtain eternal redemption? Think about that, Bob. Are we saved because of what we do and what we don't do? No, we are saved by grace through faith, born again by the Word of God. We do indeed walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, but only because He has put His Spirit within us. Not because we have within ourselves an ability to save ourselves from death. No man in history, or in the future...has the ability to save himself from the penalty of sin, that is precisely why Christ came to die in our place. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 7:51:47 GMT -5
1 John 3 says everyone that is born of God "purifies himself" -- And how do they do that, Bob? Just as Ezekiel 36:27 states...by the indwelling Spirit of God. But let's not put the horse in the cart and drag it around, keep in mind that God must cleanse the sinner in salvation before he is clean: Ephesians 5:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,Rev 19 says "the bride has made herself ready" -- So we nullify Christ saving men? Did the Bride become the Bride because she kept the Law? Or did she become the Bride through the hearing of faith? Ezek 18 speaks of making a new heart and a new spirit -- Bingo. Now look at the Promise of God in the New Covenant. God said "I will," as opposed to the temporal context of Ezekiel 18 in which He commands "You do this." You get yourself a new heart, you get yourself a new spirit... it is the SAME - in both OT and NT. No, Bob, that is the fundamental failure of the Church as a whole today: they do not understand the diffference between those who were under the Law, and those who are under the New Covenant. The entire Book of Hebrews has an underlying plea... ...embrace the New Covenant. Embrace Christ. Neither of them are talking about man able to do it by himself but rather man IT is very specific, Bob...they are the ones who are to do these things. You just can't miss that in Ezekiel 18. - who submits to the work of the Holy Spirit -- as Christ also reminds Nicodemus -- before the cross. First, the ministry of the Comforter, was not present until Christ returned to Heaven. That ministry is specific to this Age and the New Covenant, and it is He Who reveals the Gospel Mystery to all men. Secondly, we know the response of Israel to the Spirit of God: Acts 7:51-53
King James Version (KJV)
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.Stephen distinguishes between the two dispensations, Bob. So should we. Israel was under the Law in Ezekiel 18, they were under the Law in Matthew 18, and it is not until the New Covenant is established with the Blood of Christ and commenced on the Day of Pentecost that the distinction is made clear. It is the Holy Spirit in the Ministry of Comforter enlightening men's minds and hearts to the Gospel Mystery. It is by that ministry that men are born again, becoming sons of God because they are born of God, born of the Spirit, born from above, and born of the Word of God. The Old Testament Saint did not have that. It was Promise, and a promise is still a promise until fulfilled. Just as you see it in Matt 18... just as we see it in Romans 11. [/font] [/quote] Perhaps you see that, Bob, but it merges the Covenants and nullifies the Promises of God. And it was because they did not keep the Covenant that the need for the Promise of the New Covenant was necessary. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 8:00:37 GMT -5
:If you don't mind, could you be a little more specific? lol Okay, found it: Matthew 18:23-35
King James Version (KJV)
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.First, I would ask you, in Christ's parables concerning "the Kingdom," exactly which Kingdom is in view, Bob? Is it the Eternal State? Or the Millennial Kingdom? I would suggest to you that in view is the Millennial Kingdom. And the simple truth is that Israel will enter into that Kingdom based on the forgiveness God bestows in fulfilling His promise to bring her back into her own land. In view is not a scenario where men lose their salvation, if that is what you are seeking to read into it, but a context specific to Israel herself. And I would also suggest to you that if you understand that Messiah ministered first and foremost to Israel during His earthly ministry, you would see that the Kingdom in view, while extending to the Eternal Kingdom, was within the framework of the revelation provided to Israel in that day. This is why understanding that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery kept secret and not revealed to men in those Ages is important. This is not something I am eisegeting into Scripture...it's simply a Basic Bible Teaching of the New Testament. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 S o likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Christ makes it clear - that the debt we owe to God is freely forgiven - but if we do not in turn freely forgive others - that debt-paid, that forgiveness granted - will be revoked.
in Matt 6 we find "forgiveness revoked".
In Romans 11 - 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
So there we see it does not change from OT to NT - the same Gospel principle applies for the doctrine on "forgiveness revoked"
The singular problem with this doctrine is this, Bob...it is not a principle that applies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is not "You will be forgiven if you forgive." The Gospel is "You will be forgiven if you trust in Christ, Who will forgive you despite the fact...you do not deserve forgiveness, you deserve death." Another problem with your view is that you impose into the passage, and the Gospel, something that is not there: that the branches were cut out for any reason other than unbelief. They were not cut out because they failed to forgive others, or uphold a godly principle taught in the Law. They were cut out because they rejected Christ. Secondly, the Gentiles were not grafted in because they themselves upheld the Law, for one reason...the Law had been abrogated by the New Covenant. No, they were grafted in because of faith. I am not sure you might deny this, nor would I understand why you would want to. This is basic to the Gospel of Christ. And that is why I say it is important to identify what the "tree" is. It is not salvation, because we would then be attributing salvation... ...to unbelievers. They were not believers who fell into unbelief, but unbelievers who were cut out of the provision God gave them for relationship with Himself. This begins in the type which is Israel, who is the "vine taken out of Egypt and planted by God." But the True Vine, also brought out of Egypt, is the true provision of eternal relationship with God. The call to the disciples is very simple in John 15...embrace the True Vine, shed faith in heritage. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 26, 2016 8:05:06 GMT -5
have not yet figured out how to cut and paste snip - quotes on this board - so I have to post one at a time. Sorry if that is inconvenient -- I still don't have the hang of it for this board. Another tip for quoting is to open a second page of the thread where you can hit reply and get the quote with the code already embedded. Thanks again for the responses Bob, you have given me a few ideas about the next installment. I think it would be good to address the idea that because men were saved in the Old Testament yet not born again that this is a different gospel. Again, we see the consistency of the Gospel of Christ throughout the Old and New testaments, but it is again an understanding of the progressive nature of the revelation of that Mystery that is key. I do consider Genesis 3:15 the "Proto Evangelium," but as we can see in 1 Corinthians 2, despite the fact that Satan himself heard the Gospel in the Garden...no-one was given understanding of that which was the Hidden Wisdom of God. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 26, 2016 10:16:39 GMT -5
"I think it would be good to address the idea that because men were saved in the Old Testament yet not born again that this is a different gospel."
Agreed -- what is the gospel if the born again experience is not any part of it? Notice that in Romans 2:13-16 and Rev 14:7 even the future judgment is included in what the "Gospel" is.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 26, 2016 18:16:05 GMT -5
Christ makes it clear - that the debt we owe to God is freely forgiven - but if we do not in turn freely forgive others - that debt-paid, that forgiveness granted - will be revoked.
in Matt 6 we find "forgiveness revoked".
In Romans 11 - 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
So there we see it does not change from OT to NT - the same Gospel principle applies for the doctrine on "forgiveness revoked"
The singular problem with this doctrine is this, Bob...it is not a principle that applies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is not "You will be forgiven if you forgive." The Gospel is "You will be forgiven if you trust in Christ, Who will forgive you despite the fact...you do not deserve forgiveness, you deserve death." Another problem with your view is that you impose into the passage, and the Gospel, something that is not there: that the branches were cut out for any reason other than unbelief. They were not cut out because they failed to forgive others, or uphold a godly principle taught in the Law. They were cut out because they rejected Christ. Secondly, the Gentiles were not grafted in because they themselves upheld the Law, for one reason...the Law had been abrogated by the New Covenant. No, they were grafted in because of faith. I am not sure you might deny this, nor would I understand why you would want to. This is basic to the Gospel of Christ. And that is why I say it is important to identify what the "tree" is. It is not salvation, because we would then be attributing salvation... ...to unbelievers. They were not believers who fell into unbelief, but unbelievers who were cut out of the provision God gave them for relationship with Himself. This begins in the type which is Israel, who is the "vine taken out of Egypt and planted by God." But the True Vine, also brought out of Egypt, is the true provision of eternal relationship with God. The call to the disciples is very simple in John 15...embrace the True Vine, shed faith in heritage. God bless. In Matt 24 Jesus said "THIS Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and then shall the end come" He said that in the context of having already described "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. But you seem to be saying of Christ's own teaching on what He calls the Gospel - "The singular problem with this doctrine is this, Bob...it is not a principle that applies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Not only when you find it taught by Christ in Matt 18 - But also in Romans 11 In Romans 11 -19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; o therwise you also will be cut off.23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in againThis is clearly a discussion about salvation. As Paul says in Romans 11 "13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Where else does the Bible say "you stand only by your faith" in the NT except in reference to salvation??? This is clearly salvation. Where else does the Bible say 'they were broken off for their unbelief" in the NT except in the case of salvation and the Gospel? This is clearly a discussion about salvation. Admin said : " If we simply state the Tree is salvation, then we have to say equally that those who were cut out were saved, lost their salvation, and are in need of being saved...again. " True but one cannot refute that Bible detail by simply saying "I don't prefer that view" or something of that sort. It has be disproven from the text itself and Romans 11 states clearly that the context is salvation - vs 14.
|
|
|
Post by bobryan on May 26, 2016 18:28:59 GMT -5
have not yet figured out how to cut and paste snip - quotes on this board - so I have to post one at a time. Sorry if that is inconvenient -- I still don't have the hang of it for this board. Another tip for quoting is to open a second page of the thread where you can hit reply and get the quote with the code already embedded. Thanks again for the responses Bob, you have given me a few ideas about the next installment. I think it would be good to address the idea that because men were saved in the Old Testament yet not born again that this is a different gospel. Again, we see the consistency of the Gospel of Christ throughout the Old and New testaments, but it is again an understanding of the progressive nature of the revelation of that Mystery that is key. I do consider Genesis 3:15 the "Proto Evangelium," but as we can see in 1 Corinthians 2, despite the fact that Satan himself heard the Gospel in the Garden...no-one was given understanding of that which was the Hidden Wisdom of God. God bless. One thing I do on other boards is hit reply to get the quote I want -- surrounded by then add some comment and get another quote and so have several in the same post. I see you doing something like that but don't know how you are doing it. If i open another tab and reply -- I get the quote but copy-paste into another reply does not show it as a quote - so I am not getting the result of your posts formatted with quote-response and then quote-response multiple sequences in a row in a single quote. How are you doing that??
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 6:48:42 GMT -5
"I think it would be good to address the idea that because men were saved in the Old Testament yet not born again that this is a different gospel." Agreed -- what is the gospel if the born again experience is not any part of it? Notice that in Romans 2:13-16 and Rev 14:7 even the future judgment is included in what the "Gospel" is. First, nowehere have I said that the New Birth is apart from the Gospel, lol. I have been pretty clear that in this Age the Spirit of God is revealing the Gospel to men, and that in past Ages the Gospel was hid from men. That is why it is called a mystery. Second, I have not excluded the Gospel from the Old Testament, simply the understanding of the Gospel. And I have done that in a number of ways, beginning first with the very disciples of Christ. Lastly, consider this passage: Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.How exactly did these Gentiles hear the Gospel? Do you think that they were trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? They will be judged according to their obedience to the works of the Law written in their hearts. And we do not impose regeneration into these individuals for their obedience. These are...Old Testaments Saints, every bit as much as Abraham was. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 7:06:14 GMT -5
Another tip for quoting is to open a second page of the thread where you can hit reply and get the quote with the code already embedded. Thanks again for the responses Bob, you have given me a few ideas about the next installment. I think it would be good to address the idea that because men were saved in the Old Testament yet not born again that this is a different gospel. Again, we see the consistency of the Gospel of Christ throughout the Old and New testaments, but it is again an understanding of the progressive nature of the revelation of that Mystery that is key. I do consider Genesis 3:15 the "Proto Evangelium," but as we can see in 1 Corinthians 2, despite the fact that Satan himself heard the Gospel in the Garden...no-one was given understanding of that which was the Hidden Wisdom of God. God bless. One thing I do on other boards is hit reply to get the quote I want -- surrounded by then add some comment and get another quote and so have several in the same post. I see you doing something like that but don't know how you are doing it. If i open another tab and reply -- I get the quote but copy-paste into another reply does not show it as a quote - so I am not getting the result of your posts formatted with quote-response and then quote-response multiple sequences in a row in a single quote. How are you doing that?? When you hit quote the time-stamp code is the first thing you will see at the top right. I will give an example of that but change the parentheses to brackets so the code is disabled. Here is this particular quote: [quote author="bobryan" source="/post/128/thread" timestamp="1464305339"}[quote source="/post/125/thread" timestamp="1464267906" author="Admin"}Another tip for quoting is to open a second page of the thread where you can hit reply and get the quote with the code already embedded. Thanks again for the responses Bob, you have given me a few ideas about the next installment. I think it would be good to address the idea that because men were saved in the Old Testament yet not born again that this is a different gospel. Again, we see the consistency of the Gospel of Christ throughout the Old and New testaments, but it is again an understanding of the progressive nature of the revelation of that Mystery that is key. I do consider Genesis 3:15 the "Proto Evangelium," but as we can see in 1 Corinthians 2, despite the fact that Satan himself heard the Gospel in the Garden...no-one was given understanding of that which was the Hidden Wisdom of God. God bless. [/quote}One thing I do on other boards is hit reply to get the quote I want -- surrounded by [quote} May 26, 2016 9:05:06 GMT -4 Admin said: --- some text [/quote} then add some comment and get another quote and so have several in the same post. I see you doing something like that but don't know how you are doing it. If i open another tab and reply -- I get the quote but copy-paste into another reply does not show it as a quote - so I am not getting the result of your posts formatted with quote-response and then quote-response multiple sequences in a row in a single quote. How are you doing that?? [/quote}I changed the ending ] to a } to disable code. I color coded the quote code to show how they interact. So when I hit quote and went into the reply screen, the above is what I see. to break it up, just copy and paste the timestamp of the one your quoting: [quote author="bobryan" source="/post/128/thread" timestamp="1464305339"}Space out what you want to break up, and put the above timestamp in front of it, and then copy and paste the end code after each section: [/quote}So if I just wanted to quote one specific thing you said in the above (and you know I am not capable of that, lol), it would look like this: [quote author="bobryan" source="/post/128/thread" timestamp="1464305339"}How are you doing that?? [/quote}Now I will change the } back to a ] to make it work: And because I have done this, my antagonist, or someone following the conversation, can click on the time-stamp and see the original post this quote is pulled from. It is a little frustrating when posts are cherry-picked and without the timestamp, because sometimes you lose valuable time trying to locate the original post and reviewing context. The code to quote is generally, on most forums, QUOTE in [ ] and the end code /QUOTE in [ ]. Sometimes it's quote and /quote (in [ ] ). Same thing with size, if you put {SIZE=3} in front of the quote, and {/SIZE} at the end, you can change the size. When you use the quote code, you can also do {QUOTE=(and whatever you put after the = will be what appears)} at the front and end with {/QUOTE}. And again the [ ] have been changed to disable the code. Hope I understood your question correctly Bob, if this doesn't address it, disregard the above, lol. If it is what you were asking, you can also go here... christdoctrineview.proboards.com/thread/5/quoting-procedure...for a little more detailed instruction. God bless.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 7:31:22 GMT -5
The singular problem with this doctrine is this, Bob...it is not a principle that applies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is not "You will be forgiven if you forgive." The Gospel is "You will be forgiven if you trust in Christ, Who will forgive you despite the fact...you do not deserve forgiveness, you deserve death." Another problem with your view is that you impose into the passage, and the Gospel, something that is not there: that the branches were cut out for any reason other than unbelief. They were not cut out because they failed to forgive others, or uphold a godly principle taught in the Law. They were cut out because they rejected Christ. Secondly, the Gentiles were not grafted in because they themselves upheld the Law, for one reason...the Law had been abrogated by the New Covenant. No, they were grafted in because of faith. I am not sure you might deny this, nor would I understand why you would want to. This is basic to the Gospel of Christ. And that is why I say it is important to identify what the "tree" is. It is not salvation, because we would then be attributing salvation... ...to unbelievers. They were not believers who fell into unbelief, but unbelievers who were cut out of the provision God gave them for relationship with Himself. This begins in the type which is Israel, who is the "vine taken out of Egypt and planted by God." But the True Vine, also brought out of Egypt, is the true provision of eternal relationship with God. The call to the disciples is very simple in John 15...embrace the True Vine, shed faith in heritage. God bless. In Matt 24 Jesus said "THIS Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and then shall the end come" He said that in the context of having already described "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. And the question is, if the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a mystery, and not revealed to men in past Ages...what does "...this Gospel of the Kingdom" refer to? It is pretty simple, it refers to what was revealed to men in that Age, which is indisputably the Age of Law. The "Kingdom" Israel awaited was that Kingdom promised by God to Israel, and it was an earthly Kingdom. They expected for Israel to be restored to her former glory with the Son of David on the Throne. There would be long life. There would be a cessation of animosity between men and animals, and animals and animals. There would be prosperity. The Gospel of the Kingdom refers to the Millennial Kingdom, Bob. And if you look at the parables and teachings of Christ, keeping that in mind, you will see that there is a difference between that Gospel (which is the one the Disciples preached exclusively to the Lost Sheep of Israel) and the full revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. Consider: Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:Now tell me, do we consider that tares will be sowed in either Heaven or the Eternal State? No, this parable speaks of the temporal. It speaks of this Age, as well (in a context directed at Israel) as the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 18:23
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.Your own proof-text (and that is not a derisive term, we all use proof-texts) speaks of the temporal, right? Matthew 25:14-18
King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.Now would we expect, in Heaven or the Eternal State, that stewardship of currency is going to be something we will face judgment for? Again, the context is temporal, and while we, on this side of the revelation of the Gospel Mystery, can understand the underlying teaching of the spiritual rule and reign of Christ in the hearts of men in the temporal, we still do not equate the Kingdom Gospel (from a perspective of revelation) with the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what I see you ignoring in this Bob, or perhaps overlooking might be a better way to put it. God judges men, both believers and unbelievers...in the temporal. It is true, and a basic Bible principle that we shall receive mercy as we show mercy, and we will be forgiven as we forgive. But we can't put that into an eternal context which is salvific, because as I mentioned yesterday... ...we are not forgiven of God because of our ability to forgive others. That is in fact another gospel. We receive not just forgiveness in general, but specifically...remission of our own sins, and that has nothing to do with the sins of others and whether we forgive them or not. Continued...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 27, 2016 7:53:24 GMT -5
But you seem to be saying of Christ's own teaching on what He calls the Gospel - "The singular problem with this doctrine is this, Bob...it is not a principle that applies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Of course it applies in the sense that we do not separate concepts and teachings and set them by themselves, all of Christ's teachings are relevant in the general whole, but, what you do when you apply a "revocation of forgiveness" in a salvific context is drastically change the very Gospel of Christ. What did you do, Bob, to be saved? Was it because you were a generous fellow that was very forgiving of those who did you wrong? I know you don't think like that. So why, when you get to Romans 11, do you think that the natural branches were men and women that were saved...and then had forgiveness revoked? They were unbelievers, that is why they were cut out. We see this same teaching here: Hebrews 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.Here it is...the children of Israel "heard the Gospel preached." They did hear the Gospel, Christ expounds upon that in regards to the serpent being lifted up. But, they were not told that the seprent was a type of Christ and that by believing on Christ they would be eternally saved. No, they were told that if they simply obeyed God, which was to look at the serpent...their physical lives would be spared. Secondly, going back to the fact that they were unbelievers, we are told that multiple times in Hebrews 3: Hebrews 3
King James Version (KJV)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
So too, in Romans 11, we cannot ascribe salvation to unbelievers. They were cut out because of unbelief, yet... ...they were in the Tree. He is speaking specifically about those of Israel, which is made clear when they are contrasted with the wild branches. Not only when you find it taught by Christ in Matt 18 - But also in Romans 11 In Romans 11 -19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; o therwise you also will be cut off.23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in againThis is clearly a discussion about salvation. It is, but, that does not mean the natural branches... ...were saved. That is what I mean. The context is dealing with two groups, Jews (Israel, natural branches), and Gentiles (wild branches). You are construing the context to be dealing with faithful believers and unfaithful. That is why you understand this to mean salvation can be lost. And it is simply not in the context. The only hope of the unbelievers is...to believe: Romans 11:23-27
King James Version (KJV)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.So if they come to believe, they will be grafted back into the Tree, which is God's provision for relationship with Himself. While salvation is the benefit, we cannot look at the "Tree" under the Law as providing eternal salvation. They were not cut out of salvation, because they never had it. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?Here, Gentiles are in view, not believers. He tells us that in the next verse:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.Note that Gentile Inclusion is...a mystery. Paul speaks several times about this, and I talk about that in the second installment of the study. Now, note what he states next: 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
How can "all" Israel be saved? It's very simple, this speaks about the Tribulation and the Return of Christ, which will begin when the "fullness of the Gentiles comes in." All unbelievers are destroyed between the destruction of the Tribulation, the destruction imposed at Christ's return, and then finally when the nations are gathered and separated, believer from unbeliever, Sheep from Goats. And the Goats are destroyed and enter into eternal punishment. Thus "all" Israel is saved. And this will be the fulfilling of God's promise to Israel...
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.God promised Israel a New Covenant, and Nationally Israel has not yet entered into that Covenant. When they do, those promises of God will be fulfilled in them as it is in us in this Age. Continued...
|
|