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Post by bobryan on May 22, 2016 18:17:03 GMT -5
Would you admit that finding that they are in fact appearing "in glory with Christ" -- certainly matters? Sure, but the point is the context is not dealing with glorification in a context of resurrection. That is the point I was making. Consider: John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Now the implication I see in your point is that Moses and Elijah are already glorified (in the sense of resurrection), which I don't see as possible because not even the Lord will be glorified in that sense until the Resurrection. Luke 9 28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying I can only ask that you clarify that you view Moses and Elijah as being glorified, meaning they are in resurrection bodies prior to the Cross and Pentecost. If so, that would make whether they were born again a moot point, lol. God bless. Enoch and Elijah never died - the Bible says they were both taken to heaven while alive -- translated. Moses did die according to the Bible - but was resurrected according to the book "the assumption of Moses" quoted in the book of Jude. So then Moses resurrected and in glorified body. Elijah (and Enoch) -- translated directly to heaven - and in glorified bodies. Luke 9 28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying So also Christ (because God can do whatever He wants) as Matthew points out "he face shone like the sun" -- Luke points out the glorified form of Moses and Elijah and does not mention the specific one for Christ - but we know it from Matt 22. Matt 17 Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. |
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Post by bobryan on May 22, 2016 18:24:15 GMT -5
Secondly, in view is not whether Peter was "saved," as far as salvation in the Old Testament (and I include the period the Gospels take place) in that, because men were still under under the Covenant of Law.In view is whether he was a born again Christian. This is the purpose of the study, to distinguish between salvation under prior Covenants, and salvation in Christ. v Sounds like "two gospels" -- two ways to be saved. Paul is against that idea in Gal 1:6-9 What is more - Christ insists that this doctrine is accepted pre-cross and that Nicodemus must know of the born-again experience since he is a teacher of scripture -- as we see in John 3. |
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Post by Admin on May 22, 2016 20:34:13 GMT -5
Sure, but the point is the context is not dealing with glorification in a context of resurrection. That is the point I was making. Consider: John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Now the implication I see in your point is that Moses and Elijah are already glorified (in the sense of resurrection), which I don't see as possible because not even the Lord will be glorified in that sense until the Resurrection. I can only ask that you clarify that you view Moses and Elijah as being glorified, meaning they are in resurrection bodies prior to the Cross and Pentecost. If so, that would make whether they were born again a moot point, lol. God bless. Enoch and Elijah never died - the Bible says they were both taken to heaven while alive -- translated. Give the Scripture, and we can look at them. Elijah is caught up to the heavens, and to make this Heaven contradicts a number of passages, one being Luke 16, which some view to be a "parable" but if so, it is the only parable that uses proper names of people that literally existed (and Abraham at least has to be acknowledged, though I see it very likely Lazarus is he that was resurrected by Christ (physically). Enoch, is said to be translated that he not see death, and I would suggest again that we come into conflict with other Scriptures placing Enoch in Heaven. It is more likely, based on indications that men went into Sheol/Hades at death, that Enoch also went into Hades, and did not "see" death in that he did not suffer the pains of death. The way into God's presence, under Law and after the Garden, was not manifest: Hebrews 9:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;This is man's entrance to God, the way into the Holiest (which is not speaking about the earthly Holy of Holies, because men did go into that room), was just a figure under Law. The Holiest our Great High Priest entered, though... 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:Entrance to God was secured...by the Blood of Christ:
Hebrews 10:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;And here is a much debated verse that I think stands up to scrutiny: John 3:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.John already made this same statement:
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.So how do we reconcile "No man hath seen God at any time" with the fact that we know men have seen God...here on earth? For example, Abraham washed His feet and served Him lunch (Genesis 18). It seems fairly obvious that the context is dealing with men seeing God in His Glory in Heaven. If men were going to Heaven then we have a conflict with what is being taught elsewhere. Of course John reiterates this in 1 John 4:12, which is a post-Cross context, and we know men are going to Heaven at that point, but, we have to consider the fact that John's statement in his Gospel is dealing with the Incarnation. The context of John 1:18 makes the case that Christ declared Him, which again makes us consider Genesis 18 and other times when men saw God. Moses did die according to the Bible - but was resurrected according to the book "the assumption of Moses" quoted in the book of Jude. I do not recognize extrabiblical literature, and I do not justify doctrine based on it. Again, you are not considering the clear statement of Scripture that prior to His resurrection...Christ was not glorified. Secondly, this denies that Christ is the Firstborn from the Dead, and the Firstfruits from the dead. Third, we have a Paul's teaching that the Church will be glorified at the Rapture, which begs the question...why would the Old Testament Saints have been resurrected and not those of the Church? Consider: 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.And I will stop there on this point, as I am out of time. I will just ask how you reconcile what is said here. The glorified body is the result and benefit of Christ's work. Secondly, we see that the Resurrection of the Dead is still pending in Christ's Day, hence Christ's rebuke of the Saducees, as well as Paul's assertion that he believed in the Resurrection from the Dead. It's an intersting topic of discussion, so sorry for the off the cuff response. This deserves a little more attention, and just finished a lengthy session with a Catholic, and its gotten late on me. So then Moses resurrected and in glorified body. Based on extra-biblical sources and standing contrary to Christ's own teaching? Did he not say "Your fathers are dead?" Is not not Moses corpse angels contend over? lol Is Paul mistaken that Christ is the Firstborn and the firstfruits, and that they that are Christ's will be raised, as Paul teaches concerning the Resurrection...when Christ returns? Elijah (and Enoch) -- translated directly to heaven - and in glorified bodies.
2 Kings 2:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.The heaven in view is just as likely the sky itself, and there is no mention of translation. Not really something we can be dogmatic about, nor does it deny Elijah, if he is taken from the earth, going into Sheol/Hades. Luke 9 28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying So also Christ (because God can do whatever He wants) as Matthew points out "he face shone like the sun" -- Again, nothing here that speaks of glorification of the body, but simply glory, which is used in numerous ways throughout Scripture. It is an impossibility to have men glorified prior to Christ's own glorification. He is the First. And I will have to come back to this if you like, with a fuller address, just about done for the night, and want to get to your last post. God bless. Luke points out the glorified form of Moses and Elijah and does not mention the specific one for Christ - but we know it from Matt 22. Matt 17 Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. |
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Post by Admin on May 22, 2016 20:47:35 GMT -5
Secondly, in view is not whether Peter was "saved," as far as salvation in the Old Testament (and I include the period the Gospels take place) in that, because men were still under under the Covenant of Law.In view is whether he was a born again Christian. This is the purpose of the study, to distinguish between salvation under prior Covenants, and salvation in Christ. v Sounds like "two gospels" -- two ways to be saved. But here is the thing, Bob...I am not saying that men were saved under the Law. You did read the post, didn't you? lol Again, Peter was "saved" according to an Old Testament standard, justified by faith. That is how men have always been saved. However, that does not mean we conclude he had received that which he clearly had not. I Listed numerous things, perhaps you could show me why you would believe they had these things: 1. The Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, promised by God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the Gospels (John 14:16, Ephesians 1:14, 4:30); 2. Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12,15); 3. Remission of sins (Hebrews 9:15, 10:14); 4. Revelation of the Gospel Mystery (Romans 16:25-26, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26-27); 5. Reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-19); 6. Our Great High Priest (Hebrews 9:11-12); 7. The Mediator of the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24). Again, we are not asking if men were saved before Pentecost, lol. This makes the allegation of "two Gospels" moot. Again, what we are looking at is the fulfillment of Prophecy and promise, the list above showing that which they did not have until the New Covenant was established. Paul is against that idea in Gal 1:6-9 I'm against it too. Could you show how my Gospel is unbiblical? That would be a great place to start, lol. What is more - Christ insists that this doctrine is accepted pre-cross So who accepted it? Who believed in His death? Even His closest disciples scattered when He was taken: John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.The Lord does not seem much impressed with their claim to "now" believe. His response indicates quite the opposite. But, all of this is covered in the Study, this issue in the first post. You know you can copy and paste from that thread if you have seen something you disagree with. But again, Galatians 1:6-9 deals with the false gospel of Judaizers, which is irrelevant to the study. Secondly, as I said, there is not a denial that the disciples were saved, what is denied is that they were born again believers. Okay, thanks for the responses, time for me to knock off. God bless. and that Nicodemus must know of the born-again experience since he is a teacher of scripture -- as we see in John 3. |
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Post by bobryan on May 23, 2016 14:04:32 GMT -5
Sounds like "two gospels" -- two ways to be saved. But here is the thing, Bob...I am not saying that men were saved under the Law. You did read the post, didn't you? lol Again, Peter was "saved" according to an Old Testament standard, justified by faith. That is how men have always been saved. However, that does not mean we conclude he had received that which he clearly had not. I Listed numerous things, perhaps you could show me why you would believe they had these things: 1. The Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, promised by God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the Gospels (John 14:16, Ephesians 1:14, 4:30); 2. Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12,15); 3. Remission of sins (Hebrews 9:15, 10:14); ... Some of the things you list -- are part of the ONE Gospel - they are not "non-gospel" benefits or benefits "apart from the gospel" rather it is all part of the one and only one Gospel - the "good news" of salvation. In every age it is unfolding and understood more and more. Claiming that someone can be saved without being born-again without the Holy Spirit, without faith, without believing ... is 'another gospel' And thus as even Nicodemus gets lectured for pretending he does not understand the 'New Birth' doctrine in John 3 -- it is all "one" gospel -- in all ages. New Birth -- Born again saints -- Holy Spirit IN them. New Creation. "Law written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 just as in NT - Heb 8:6-10. "The sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" that were revealed to OT saints, mysteries so great that Angels with vastly superior intellect to man STILL seek to fathom the depths of those truths - as we see in 1Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven— things into which angels long to look.
Yet they were eye witness to it!!
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us JUST as it was to THEM also"
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Post by bobryan on May 23, 2016 14:09:46 GMT -5
In Ezek 18 we find the doctrine of "Forgiveness revoked"
In Matt 18 we find the doctrine of "forgiveness revoked"
in Matt 6 we find "forgiveness revoked".
In Romans 11 -
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
============================
So there we see it does not change from OT to NT - the same Gospel principle applies for the doctrine on "forgiveness revoked"
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Post by Admin on May 23, 2016 17:41:21 GMT -5
But here is the thing, Bob...I am not saying that men were saved under the Law. You did read the post, didn't you? lol Again, Peter was "saved" according to an Old Testament standard, justified by faith. That is how men have always been saved. However, that does not mean we conclude he had received that which he clearly had not. I Listed numerous things, perhaps you could show me why you would believe they had these things: 1. The Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, promised by God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the Gospels (John 14:16, Ephesians 1:14, 4:30); 2. Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12,15); 3. Remission of sins (Hebrews 9:15, 10:14); ... Some of the things you list -- are part of the ONE Gospel - they are not "non-gospel" benefits or benefits "apart from the gospel" rather it is all part of the one and only one Gospel - the "good news" of salvation. In every age it is unfolding and understood more and more. What happened to the rest of the list? Of what you have left...show one Old Testament Saint that had these... 1. The Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, promised by God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the Gospels (John 14:16, Ephesians 1:14, 4:30); 2. Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12,15); 3. Remission of sins (Hebrews 9:15, 10:14); Claiming that someone can be saved without being born-again without the Holy Spirit, without faith, without believing ... is 'another gospel' So show me someone among the Old Testament Saints that were trusting in Christ based upon the revealed Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. There simply isn't one. They were obedient to the revelation they were given, and trusted in God, but, they did not have specific revelation concerning Christ until The Age of Law, and even then...it was not understood. The Old Testament Saints were saved, and they had the revelation of the Gospel that was afforded them, and yet not one of them were trusting in Christ as we do under the New Covenant. Show me an Old Testament Saint that understood Christ would die for them. Even among those who walked with Christ. You cannot find one. And thus as even Nicodemus gets lectured for pretending he does not understand the 'New Birth' doctrine in John 3 He's pretending not to understand? lol C'mon, Bob. I know this is a tough issue if it conflicts with what you have held to for years, but...pretending not to understand?
John 3:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?The Lord says he marveled well...he marveled. He is not pretending, lol. -- it is all "one" gospel -- in all ages. New Birth -- Born again saints -- Holy Spirit IN them. New Creation. And as I said...they had not received these things. They were promise:
Ezekiel 36:22-27
King James Version (KJV)
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.Here is what the disciples had been taught in Old Testament Prophecy, and here... John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Acts 1
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
...are just a few passages affirming they had not received this promise yet. "Law written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 just as in NT - Heb 8:6-10. And you are forgetting that the promise of the New Covenant was not fulfilled until Christ came? lol C'mon Bob. Are you seriously going to suggest that the benefits of the New Covenant were enjoyed by the Old Testament Saint? Since understanding the distinction between the ministry of the Spirit in the Old Testament proves to be difficult for most, how about addressing Atonement? Are you saying that the Old Testament Saint received remission of sins on an eternal basis through the offerings of the Law (and those which preceded the establishment of the Covenant of Law (i.e., Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job)? "The sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" that were revealed to OT saints, mysteries so great that Angels with vastly superior intellect to man STILL seek to fathom the depths of those truths - as we see in 1Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven— things into which angels long to look.
Well, at least this time you include v.12, but, I see you are still ignoring that they, the Prophets...were not ministrering that which they revealed to themselves. Meaning...it did not apply to their Age. Here is an example of the Old Testament Prophet revealing the truth of the Gospel:
Isaiah 42
King James Version (KJV)
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;Did the Prophet understand it? Did he understand Messiah would come, die for the sins of men (including Gentiles), and in fact be God manifest in the flesh? If you say yes, you are contradicting what Peter states. BUt this was already addressed. Got any new arguments?  Yet they were eye witness to it!!
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us JUST as it was to THEM also"
[/font] [/quote] And we can see what "Gospel" was preached to them. Could you show me where the Children of Israel were exhorted or commanded to trust in Christ? This will help you justify your view. The "Gospel" in view is the very will of God revealed to them, which they rejected. The Gospel is seen in the Passover Lamb, and the Brazen Serpent, yet they were not privy to an understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel. Yes, the Old Testament Saints were saved apart from being born again, that is without question. And it is not another Gospel, it is the Grace of God. Here are some other Old Testament Saints that might interest you: Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.What does Paul mean by "my Gospel?" Especially when he is saying that these Gentiles...did not have the Law. So tell me, Bob...exactly how did they hear the Gospel? How were they able to do the things contained in the Law? Were...they saved? The simple truth Paul reveals to us here is the grace of God bestowed to those who are obedient to the Law written in their hearts. There is no way to impose Covenantal relationship into this, because it is made clear they do not have the (Covenant of) Law. They are contrasted with the Jew...who did: Romans 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.And again, an issue that you have been leaving off addressing...the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. You say that the Prophets in 1 Peter 1:10-12 knew the Gospel of Christ, despite Peter making it clear they did not minister the Gospel unto themselves, so how do you reconcile that with the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? And I will give you one passage to reconcile: Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:Your position stands in direct contradiction with this. You are saying it was revealed in the Old Testament, that it was not kept secret. And by the way, the second installment deals with this, lol. Not sure if you've had a chance to take a look yet, but as I said it will not be until you look at a number of issues that the strength of this position begins to become clear. And I am not sure if you are, as requested by me, playing "devil's advocate," so to speak. A few of the arguments you are offering are really quite surprising. I would not have thought you would have rejected the teaching that Christ is the Firstborn from the Dead, or confuse the promise of the New Covenant and it's elements with the Covenant of Law and the Age it fell in. Here is a quote relevant to the promise of the New Covenant and whether men went to Heaven when they died prior to the Cross: John 6:45-47
King James Version (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.Enjoy! God bless. |
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Post by bobryan on May 23, 2016 18:12:51 GMT -5
Some of the things you list -- are part of the ONE Gospel - they are not "non-gospel" benefits or benefits "apart from the gospel" rather it is all part of the one and only one Gospel - the "good news" of salvation. In every age it is unfolding and understood more and more. What happened to the rest of the list? Of what you have left...show one Old Testament Saint that had these... 1. The Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, promised by God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the Gospels (John 14:16, Ephesians 1:14, 4:30); 2. Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12,15); 3. Remission of sins (Hebrews 9:15, 10:14); 1. All the saints of Heb 11 -- held up before even the NT saints - as our 'examples'. 2. Moses and Elijah both in glorified form according to Luke 9 -- in the Matt 17 transfiguration appearing with Christ, ALL of them such that ' we have had the gospel preached to US just as they also' Hebrews 4:2 My point in that short list - is to show that there is no such thing as the Gospel without those things - and having one - would be 'another gospel' |
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Post by bobryan on May 23, 2016 18:19:08 GMT -5
There is only "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel is the only means of salvation -- it is 'the' good news. And Paul condemns any other.
To invent new ways for people to be saved outside the Gospel is to introduce "another gospel" to argue that in addition to being saved under the 'one gospel' here are "other ways" to get salvation. But there is none.
to claim that nobody in OT or NT was saved by the gospel until they knew as much detail about it as 'you' or 'I' is to invent a doctrine by 'inference alone' -- it is not in the Bible.
Heb 4 "The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" - is a Bible detail where your answer has been to challenge the text and say 'hey wait a minute prove that' -- so to speak. But that sort of response is not exegesis and is in fact debating the text itself.
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Post by Admin on May 23, 2016 18:24:32 GMT -5
In Ezek 18 we find the doctrine of " Forgiveness revoked" No, Bob, we don't see "forgiveness revoked" that is in a context of Eternal Redemption. Ezekiel 18 is purely physical, and is within the framework of the Covenant of Law. The demand for obedience and it's reward, and the consequences of failing to keep the Covenant result, not in eternal life or punishment, but physical. Under the Law men were put to death...physically. And I would point out to you...
Ezekiel 18:29-32
King James Version (KJV)
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.Now contrast that with the promise of the New Covenant...which is not in effect in this passage. God said "I will," not "You need to," lol. If you conclude this passage has an eternal perspective, then you must equally conclude that eternal life is through the keeping of the Law. And if you believe that, then once again you come into conflict with the revelation provided when the New Covenant is established, and eternal life is the focus. In Matt 18 we find the doctrine of " forgiveness revoked"If you don't mind, could you be a little more specific? lol Okay, found it: Matthew 18:23-35
King James Version (KJV)
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.First, I would ask you, in Christ's parables concerning "the Kingdom," exactly which Kingdom is in view, Bob? Is it the Eternal State? Or the Millennial Kingdom? I would suggest to you that in view is the Millennial Kingdom. And the simple truth is that Israel will enter into that Kingdom based on the forgiveness God bestows in fulfilling His promise to bring her back into her own land. In view is not a scenario where men lose their salvation, if that is what you are seeking to read into it, but a context specific to Israel herself. And I would also suggest to you that if you understand that Messiah ministered first and foremost to Israel during His earthly ministry, you would see that the Kingdom in view, while extending to the Eternal Kingdom, was within the framework of the revelation provided to Israel in that day. This is why understanding that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery kept secret and not revealed to men in those Ages is important. This is not something I am eisegeting into Scripture...it's simply a Basic Bible Teaching of the New Testament. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. That this is not speaking about the Eternal State should be fairly clear, lol, because we will not likely see a scenario where people are going into debt and cast into prison. Bottom line: this is not an eternal context dealing with soteriological issues, except to illustrate God's forgiveness of Israel and her need to replicate that forgiving nature unto others. It is an extended illustration of "the Golden Rule," Bob. And it is no different than Romans 11. in Matt 6 we find " forgiveness revoked". Again, a little more specificity would help, lol. I am guessing you mean this... Matthew 6:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.We don't have to debate what period this is relevant to, as it is relevant not only to the day in which Christ teaches this but applies in our Age and will apply in the Millennial Kingdom. And there is no " forgiveness revoked." It is a simple teaching that gives us the same principle echoed in...
Matthew 5:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.Lastly, not to play Captain Obvious here, but none of these are relevant to the Atonement. And that is what is in view, Bob. In Romans 11 - 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
So what is the tree, Bob? Salvation? This is used by many to teach loss of salvation, and that is simply not what Paul is teaching. He would be in conflict with the numerous times he makes it clear that Salvation is not something that can be "revoked." The same concept here is seen in John 15, which is prophetic in nature. The "True Vine" has to be contrasted with a vine which is not he True Vine, so what would that be, Bob? The answer is the same thing it is here in Romans 11: it is the provision of God and is specific to Israel, and is painfully pbvious in Romans 11 a well. The natural branches are those who are of Israel. Because of unbelief they were cut out. So too with the command to "Abide" in the True Vine, the Lord is foretelling the coming opportunity to remain in the True Provision. Think about it, Bob: Israel was a vine brought out of Egypt and planted by the Lord. They had relationship with God, and provision...through that relationship. When the Lord tells the disciples, "Abide in Me," what we cannot miss is that... ...none of them did. As I said, John 15 is prophetic in nature, just as John 14 and 16 is. So is John 17. What would constitute not abiding? Well for one...remaining under the Law. Rather than embracing Christ and the New Covenant. So in Romans 11, we are not seeing "forgiveness revoked," because for one thing...they are cut out because of unbelief. How were the wild branches grafted in? By embracing the Covenant of Law? No, by believing on Christ. So again, not only are we not seeing something relevant to Atonement, where remission of sins is made complete through Christ's Sacrifice, but... ...we are not even seeing forgiveness revoked. You have a good example in the first quote, but, again...this is not a context of eternal remission of sins. ============================ So there we see it does not change from OT to NT - the same Gospel principle applies for the doctrine on " forgiveness revoked"
We do see it change, Bob, the singular example I would give you is that we are no longer under the Covenant of Law. And that particular "change" covers quite a bit of territory. I gave you a list and you refer to 3 of the elements. How about addressing those and showing how Old Testament Saints benefited from what is clearly only promise in their day, awaited by them in their day, and clearly fulfilled when Christ came, died, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter when the New Covenant was established. If you don't mind. God bless. |
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Post by Admin on May 23, 2016 18:53:52 GMT -5
What happened to the rest of the list? Of what you have left...show one Old Testament Saint that had these... 1. The Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, promised by God in the Old Testament, and Christ in the Gospels (John 14:16, Ephesians 1:14, 4:30); 2. Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12,15); 3. Remission of sins (Hebrews 9:15, 10:14); 1. All the saints of Heb 11 -- held up before even the NT saints - as our 'examples'. Right. Men and women of faith who had not received the Promise/s: Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.And if you would read the proof-texts provided in the list you would see they did not have these New Covenant elements. "Perfection" in Hebrews has to do with "completion," a bringing to an end, which is what Christ did...not the promise of it. That is all the Old Testament Saint had. 2. Moses and Elijah both in glorified form according to Luke 9 -- in the Matt 17 transfiguration appearing with Christ, Nothing in the text suggests they were glorified, only that they "appeared in glory." This has no relevance to glorification in a context of resurrection. Christ is the FirstBorn from the dead, and the Firstfruits. Reiteration of this view does not change that. Moses and Elijah have still not been resurrected yet. ALL of them such that ' we have had the gospel preached to US just as they also' Hebrews 4:2 And again...this does not nullify the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was still a Mystery. Here is another passage that testifies of this simple truth: 1 Corinthians 2:6-10
King James Version (KJV)
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.Now lets see the revelation of the Gospel in the Old Testament: Isaiah 64:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.And Paul quotes this in relation to Christ dying on the Cross. All I can ask, Bob, is if eye had not seen, and ear had not heard, nor did it enter into the hearts of men the things prepared for them that love Him...how can you assert they knew? That they saw, heard, understood? You don't see that as contradicting what the Scripture states? It is the same Gospel, and men placed their faith in that which they awaited, and await they did... Luke 2:37-38
King James Version (KJV)
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
We know the Gospel is found in the Old Testament, but what you are forgetting is that they awaited Messiah coming: John 4:25-26
King James Version (KJV)
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.This woman of Samaria awaited His coming, but was she trusting in the risen Savior? No...she had no clue as to Christ dying for her sins. Consider this, Bob...
Mark 15:43
King James Version (KJV)
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.Why is he still awaiting the Kingdom of God? This is illustrated here as well... Luke 24:15-21
King James Version (KJV)
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.First, it shows Israel awaited redemption, and secondly...it shows their unbelief. They were not trusting in the Risen Savior. And all of this has been presented in the first post of the study, so it is curious you have failed to address it. You are insisting that they were born again, yet they had not received the Holy Ghost, and they had not received remission of sins, and they did not even believe... ...Christ had risen from the dead. And I will end with just one passage that shows that:
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.That is pretty amazing to me, making born again Christians out of those who Christ Himself rebukes for not believing He had risen from the dead. Saved? Yes. Born again...no way. Simply an impossibility. God bless. My point in that short list - is to show that there is no such thing as the Gospel without those things - and having one - would be 'another gospel' |
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Post by Admin on May 24, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -5
Bob, just wanted to throw in another passage that crossed my mind in regards to your view Old Testament Saints were resurrected prior to Christ's:
Acts 2:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Why would Elijah and Moses have been resurrected when clearly David was not?
And again we see the Gospel in the Prophecy, though because the Gospel was not revealed in that Age, we would be hard pressed to claim David understood that Christ would be raised again from the dead. But, David foretold of this event, but in the understanding he had of resurrection in that Age, which looked for one general resurrection of the just and unjust.
God bless.
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Post by bobryan on May 25, 2016 21:08:15 GMT -5
In Ezek 18 we find the doctrine of " Forgiveness revoked" No, Bob, we don't see "forgiveness revoked" that is in a context of Eternal Redemption. Ezekiel 18 is purely physical, and is within the framework of the Covenant of Law. The demand for obedience and it's reward, and the consequences of failing to keep the Covenant result, not in eternal life or punishment, but physical. Under the Law men were put to death...physically. And I would point out to you...
Ezekiel 18:29-32
King James Version (KJV)
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Neither of them are talking about man able to do it by himself but rather man - who submits to the work of the Holy Spirit -- as Christ also reminds Nicodemus -- before the cross.
Just as you see it in Matt 18... just as we see it in Romans 11. |
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Post by bobryan on May 25, 2016 21:14:50 GMT -5
: In Matt 18 we find the doctrine of " forgiveness revoked"If you don't mind, could you be a little more specific? lol Okay, found it: Matthew 18:23-35
King James Version (KJV)
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.First, I would ask you, in Christ's parables concerning "the Kingdom," exactly which Kingdom is in view, Bob? Is it the Eternal State? Or the Millennial Kingdom? I would suggest to you that in view is the Millennial Kingdom. And the simple truth is that Israel will enter into that Kingdom based on the forgiveness God bestows in fulfilling His promise to bring her back into her own land. In view is not a scenario where men lose their salvation, if that is what you are seeking to read into it, but a context specific to Israel herself. And I would also suggest to you that if you understand that Messiah ministered first and foremost to Israel during His earthly ministry, you would see that the Kingdom in view, while extending to the Eternal Kingdom, was within the framework of the revelation provided to Israel in that day. This is why understanding that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery kept secret and not revealed to men in those Ages is important. This is not something I am eisegeting into Scripture...it's simply a Basic Bible Teaching of the New Testament. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 S o likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
in Matt 6 we find "forgiveness revoked".
In Romans 11 -
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
So there we see it does not change from OT to NT - the same Gospel principle applies for the doctrine on "forgiveness revoked"
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Post by bobryan on May 25, 2016 21:15:50 GMT -5
have not yet figured out how to cut and paste snip - quotes on this board - so I have to post one at a time. Sorry if that is inconvenient -- I still don't have the hang of it for this board.
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