Post by Admin on Aug 29, 2016 22:20:05 GMT -5
This is a statement brought to my attention by someone:
"Daniel 9 makes things so clear to me. How we throw that 2,000 years in the future floors me. It even tells us when the 490 year period starts (457 BC) and yet some how 7 years of that gets thrown in the distant future."
Now before I address this I will just say this is not intended to offend, though most will be offended when their views are challenged. But it is good to take the opportunity to examine this particular statement which questions the last seven year period somehow ending up "in the distant future." Let's look at it:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I will just assume most who read this will be familiar with the prophetic time frame given here. In the original language, what is translated "weeks" basically refers to a period of "sevens"(see link). Here we see that a period of Seventy "Weeks" are prescribed for Daniel's People, which refers to Israel.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Note there will be three periods these Seventy Weeks are divided into: seven weeks (49 years), threescore and two weeks, or, 62 weeks (434 years), and then the last period, which is not specifically mentioned here, but we are given the information we need in the following verses:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
After the second period we are told "Messiah is cut off, but not for Himself." Most agree this refers to Christ's Crucifixion. What is debated, though, is who the "prince that shall come" is. I will just point out to those who feel this refers to Christ that...
1. Christians did not and will not destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the Sanctuary (v.26);
2. Christ did not "confirm" the Covenant of Law (which is the Covenant relevant to Daniel's People) at His Death on the Cross (v.27);
3. Christ did confirm the New Covenant with His Blood (though the New Covenant began when the Promised Spirit, the Comforter, came on Pentecost) but...He did not confirm it for one Week, this Covenant is the Eternal Covenant (v.27);
4. Christ did not make the Covenant of Law obsolete 3 1/2 years after His Death...that was immediate to the Cross, for no other sacrifice was legitimate after He offered up Himself (v.27);
5. Christ did not make the Covenant of Law desolate through the overspreading of abominations.
These are just a few points to consider when we try to interpret this text. If we get the wrong person in view, it will skew the rest of our efforts in understanding why...the Seventieth Week has not yet occurred (v.27).
The primary point to open discussion is this: There are two periods described as fulfilled before Messiah is cut off (7 and 62 Weeks), so we understand the Seventieth Week follows this.
Let's take a quick look at Daniel 12:
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
If we do the math, we see that the original time, times, and a half (3 1/2 years) is extended twice. First, by thirty days, then, an additional forty five days, which, if we understand the events as described in the Gospels and Revelation, we see there is going to be a period of establishing of the Kingdom when Christ returns. All unbelievers will perish, and as Christ teaches in John 3...only those born again will see the Kingdom of God.
We see that here:
Matthew 25
King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
These are the physical believers who survive the Tribulation, they enter physically into the Kingdom promised by God to Israel (and by extension all families of the earth).
Here are the unbelievers, the goats:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now, why these texts are important in understanding why the Seventieth Week is in the distant future is to first understand that Christ will return, which is a Doctrine few will deny. While our A-millennial Brethren may feel that His physical return will usher in the Eternal State, we have the problem of the thousand years described in Revelation, as well as the disposition of those after the Tribulation ends, namely, the unbelievers who will be destroyed at Christ's return, and the offspring that rebels against God and joins ranks with Satan who is loosed for a short season (which would likely be that seventy day period we see that is likely the establishment of the Kingdom, which consists of the Sheep and Goat judgment.
And we will just briefly look at that:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now, we know that when the Eternal State begins (Revelations 21) Satan has been confined to the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10), and it is a little absurd to interject his release (for a short season) in the Eternal State itself. And there is no reason to do so, for the account is really quite simple. Satan's binding takes place at Christ's Return. From there we have the 75 Days in which the Kingdom is established and we can start our thousand year clock at that time (at the end of that 75 days). As mentioned, no unbeliever will enter into this Kingdom (Matthew 13:46-48), but, we see that there is a great multitude who rebel against God. These are the physical descendants of the Sheep who do enter the Kingdom.
Now let's look at believers who died during the Tribulation:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Those who die during the Tribulation are raised again, and it is most probable this is in glorified form. Despite the fact that life will, according to Isaiah, be longer in the Kingdom, we see they endure the entire thousand years which makes it likely they are raised again in glorified form. The physical believers who live through the Tribulation are not glorified at this time, and it from them that those who rebel against God descend from.
If the Church were raptured at the end of the Tribulation, this would leave no physical believers to produce this offspring.
And here are the "rest of the dead (unbelievers):"
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The rest of the dead remain in Hades until the thousand years are finished.
Now we see Satan's loosing and that campaign against God quashed:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I would just point out that this...has not taken place yet.
Nor has the Tribulation.
We are not in the thousand year period, and the thousand year period is not a symbolic or figurative way to say "a long time."
Let's go back to that Abomination of Desolation mentioned by Daniel, spoken of by Christ here:
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
While we can see multiple fulfillments of prophecy in Scripture, Christ's Coming being probably the greatest example, even so we see that the Abomination of Desolation could be seen in events of AD 70. However, what we do not see, which is necessary for us to make a determination of culmination concerning the Prophecy is...Christ's Return itself. We just cannot make the timeline work. The points made concerning Daniel 9:26-27 should be considered. We do not have a 3 1/2 year period between Christ's death and the destruction of the Temple...but roughly 35 years.
Now I ask you...why is it okay to put this 35 years into the future and view that as any different than two thousand years or so?
The Seventieth Week is at no time made to appear to be anything but seven consecutive years. Just as the seven week and the 62 week period were. If we embrace that view then what we have to do is to try to create a Week that is not really a seven year period. But, if we maintain what Scripture actually teaches we see that very week described in Revelation. The Two Witnesses will minister for 3 1/2 years, be killed, raptured, and then Antichrist will rule for 3 1/2 years. That's seven years, folks.
That (mid-point event)is the Abomination of Desolation, and this is precisely what Paul is speaking about here:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Kind of hard to have someone in AD 70 sitting in the Temple claiming to be God. Antiochus Epiphanes is a better example of this than a Roman ruler.
Here are the two periods described in Revelation:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
These are not concurrent, but two separate time periods, both of which make up the Seventieth Week.
In the second half we see Israel given refuge for that second 3 1/2 year period:
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
And we will stop there. This is just meant to stir up conversation, and a starting point for discussion as to why the Tribulation and Christ's Return, which is followed by the Millennial Kingdom...are in fact in the distant future when the Prophecy is given in Daniel.
God bless.
"Daniel 9 makes things so clear to me. How we throw that 2,000 years in the future floors me. It even tells us when the 490 year period starts (457 BC) and yet some how 7 years of that gets thrown in the distant future."
Now before I address this I will just say this is not intended to offend, though most will be offended when their views are challenged. But it is good to take the opportunity to examine this particular statement which questions the last seven year period somehow ending up "in the distant future." Let's look at it:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I will just assume most who read this will be familiar with the prophetic time frame given here. In the original language, what is translated "weeks" basically refers to a period of "sevens"(see link). Here we see that a period of Seventy "Weeks" are prescribed for Daniel's People, which refers to Israel.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Note there will be three periods these Seventy Weeks are divided into: seven weeks (49 years), threescore and two weeks, or, 62 weeks (434 years), and then the last period, which is not specifically mentioned here, but we are given the information we need in the following verses:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
After the second period we are told "Messiah is cut off, but not for Himself." Most agree this refers to Christ's Crucifixion. What is debated, though, is who the "prince that shall come" is. I will just point out to those who feel this refers to Christ that...
1. Christians did not and will not destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the Sanctuary (v.26);
2. Christ did not "confirm" the Covenant of Law (which is the Covenant relevant to Daniel's People) at His Death on the Cross (v.27);
3. Christ did confirm the New Covenant with His Blood (though the New Covenant began when the Promised Spirit, the Comforter, came on Pentecost) but...He did not confirm it for one Week, this Covenant is the Eternal Covenant (v.27);
4. Christ did not make the Covenant of Law obsolete 3 1/2 years after His Death...that was immediate to the Cross, for no other sacrifice was legitimate after He offered up Himself (v.27);
5. Christ did not make the Covenant of Law desolate through the overspreading of abominations.
These are just a few points to consider when we try to interpret this text. If we get the wrong person in view, it will skew the rest of our efforts in understanding why...the Seventieth Week has not yet occurred (v.27).
The primary point to open discussion is this: There are two periods described as fulfilled before Messiah is cut off (7 and 62 Weeks), so we understand the Seventieth Week follows this.
Let's take a quick look at Daniel 12:
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
If we do the math, we see that the original time, times, and a half (3 1/2 years) is extended twice. First, by thirty days, then, an additional forty five days, which, if we understand the events as described in the Gospels and Revelation, we see there is going to be a period of establishing of the Kingdom when Christ returns. All unbelievers will perish, and as Christ teaches in John 3...only those born again will see the Kingdom of God.
We see that here:
Matthew 25
King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
These are the physical believers who survive the Tribulation, they enter physically into the Kingdom promised by God to Israel (and by extension all families of the earth).
Here are the unbelievers, the goats:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now, why these texts are important in understanding why the Seventieth Week is in the distant future is to first understand that Christ will return, which is a Doctrine few will deny. While our A-millennial Brethren may feel that His physical return will usher in the Eternal State, we have the problem of the thousand years described in Revelation, as well as the disposition of those after the Tribulation ends, namely, the unbelievers who will be destroyed at Christ's return, and the offspring that rebels against God and joins ranks with Satan who is loosed for a short season (which would likely be that seventy day period we see that is likely the establishment of the Kingdom, which consists of the Sheep and Goat judgment.
And we will just briefly look at that:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now, we know that when the Eternal State begins (Revelations 21) Satan has been confined to the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10), and it is a little absurd to interject his release (for a short season) in the Eternal State itself. And there is no reason to do so, for the account is really quite simple. Satan's binding takes place at Christ's Return. From there we have the 75 Days in which the Kingdom is established and we can start our thousand year clock at that time (at the end of that 75 days). As mentioned, no unbeliever will enter into this Kingdom (Matthew 13:46-48), but, we see that there is a great multitude who rebel against God. These are the physical descendants of the Sheep who do enter the Kingdom.
Now let's look at believers who died during the Tribulation:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Those who die during the Tribulation are raised again, and it is most probable this is in glorified form. Despite the fact that life will, according to Isaiah, be longer in the Kingdom, we see they endure the entire thousand years which makes it likely they are raised again in glorified form. The physical believers who live through the Tribulation are not glorified at this time, and it from them that those who rebel against God descend from.
If the Church were raptured at the end of the Tribulation, this would leave no physical believers to produce this offspring.
And here are the "rest of the dead (unbelievers):"
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The rest of the dead remain in Hades until the thousand years are finished.
Now we see Satan's loosing and that campaign against God quashed:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I would just point out that this...has not taken place yet.
Nor has the Tribulation.
We are not in the thousand year period, and the thousand year period is not a symbolic or figurative way to say "a long time."
Let's go back to that Abomination of Desolation mentioned by Daniel, spoken of by Christ here:
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
While we can see multiple fulfillments of prophecy in Scripture, Christ's Coming being probably the greatest example, even so we see that the Abomination of Desolation could be seen in events of AD 70. However, what we do not see, which is necessary for us to make a determination of culmination concerning the Prophecy is...Christ's Return itself. We just cannot make the timeline work. The points made concerning Daniel 9:26-27 should be considered. We do not have a 3 1/2 year period between Christ's death and the destruction of the Temple...but roughly 35 years.
Now I ask you...why is it okay to put this 35 years into the future and view that as any different than two thousand years or so?
The Seventieth Week is at no time made to appear to be anything but seven consecutive years. Just as the seven week and the 62 week period were. If we embrace that view then what we have to do is to try to create a Week that is not really a seven year period. But, if we maintain what Scripture actually teaches we see that very week described in Revelation. The Two Witnesses will minister for 3 1/2 years, be killed, raptured, and then Antichrist will rule for 3 1/2 years. That's seven years, folks.
That (mid-point event)is the Abomination of Desolation, and this is precisely what Paul is speaking about here:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Kind of hard to have someone in AD 70 sitting in the Temple claiming to be God. Antiochus Epiphanes is a better example of this than a Roman ruler.
Here are the two periods described in Revelation:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
These are not concurrent, but two separate time periods, both of which make up the Seventieth Week.
In the second half we see Israel given refuge for that second 3 1/2 year period:
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
And we will stop there. This is just meant to stir up conversation, and a starting point for discussion as to why the Tribulation and Christ's Return, which is followed by the Millennial Kingdom...are in fact in the distant future when the Prophecy is given in Daniel.
God bless.