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Post by bridgette922 on Aug 29, 2016 21:29:30 GMT -5
Hello all,
I'm posting because a family friend has recently converted to a view of amillennialism and I would like to have a better understanding of Scripture in order to show him that this view is proven wrong in the Bible.
He believe doesn't believe in a future rapture and thinks that it is a new teaching from the 1850's made popular by the Scofield Bible. He thinks Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were all related to 70AD. He also thinks that Jesus will return for his "perfect" bride and not a defeated that suffered through the tribulation and the submission to an anti-christ.
What are some thoughts on these points and amillennialism in general?
Thanks.
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Post by Admin on Aug 29, 2016 22:50:44 GMT -5
Hello all, I'm posting because a family friend has recently converted to a view of amillennialism and I would like to have a better understanding of Scripture in order to show him that this view is proven wrong in the Bible. He believe doesn't believe in a future rapture and thinks that it is a new teaching from the 1850's made popular by the Scofield Bible. He thinks Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were all related to 70AD. He also thinks that Jesus will return for his "perfect" bride and not a defeated that suffered through the tribulation and the submission to an anti-christ. What are some thoughts on these points and amillennialism in general? Thanks. Hello Bridgette and welcome to the forum. First thing to understand is that the A-millennial view has some very convincing arguments, and it is not unusual for people to embrace this system. It is my understanding that the Reformers made this position popular due to their desire to distance themselves from all things Catholic, lol. Discussion concerning the A-millennial view is laborious, lol, and sometimes frustrating because their view is basically much like the Catholic view in regards to interpreting Scripture. They make figurative quite a bit which those of us who are more literal in our exegesis do. For example, the denial that Revelation 20 actually means a literal thousand year period is based on Peter's statement "A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years a day." Usually when I debate A-millennials it focuses on numerous issues which might seem unrelated, but, in the grand scheme of things, are in fact relevant. Most who deny the Pre-Trib Rapture usually try to say Darby created this Doctrine. However, the Rapture is a Doctrine taught by Paul in the First Century, and as to it's timing, that is made understandable when we balance what is said about it. TO say there is no Rapture denies a pretty clear teaching in Scripture: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Here we see the catching away of the Church as a whole, both living and dead. Hard for us to reconcile this to the teaching given in Revelation 20:4-6, where we see only Tribulation Martyrs risen, and a time period which follows (one thousand years). Progressive Dispensationalists reconcile their Pre-Trib view with a localized Tribulation (occurring in the Middle east only, which denies Christ's teachings concerning the fact that only those born again will enter into that Kingdom. That the Pre-Trib Rapture gained popularity is certainly true, though we are seeing that shift lately, at least I see it on the forums. The reason for this is likely die to the poor understanding most have. Here is a passage some mistake for a Rapture teaching, but, it's significance is still important to the Pre-Trib Rapture: Luke 17:30-37
King James Version (KJV)
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.In view is Christ's Return. Luke expands on the same statement made in Matthew 24:27-28. The Disciples ask where those who are taken are taken to, and the answer is...in judgment. Those who are left are "left" to enter the Kingdom. We see this described in Prophecy:
Ezekiel 39
King James Version (KJV)
39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Not really something that can be described as the beginning of the Eternal State. When the Eternal State begins, all unbelievers will be in the Lake of Fire (Hell/Gehenna). We simply cannot ignore the numerous Prophecies which describe a period of time after Christ's Return. Here is another example of a physical period described in the Old Testament Prophecy:
Ezekiel 39:7-13
King James Version (KJV)
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.So just a few things to consider. If there are doctrines or points of the A-millennial view you would like to look at, let me know. Again, welcome to the forum. God bless. |
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Post by Admin on Aug 31, 2016 10:31:41 GMT -5
He also thinks that Jesus will return for his "perfect" bride and not a defeated that suffered through the tribulation and the submission to an anti-christ. In regards to a "defeated" Bride, we keep in mind that when the Rapture takes place both those who have died as well as those who remain will be caught up: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.If there is no Tribulation, and there is but a single Return in the Prophetic Timeline which begins the Eternal State (which is depicted in Revelation 21 after the Millennial Kingdom, and the Great White Throne Judgment), then we have the problem with thinking that none of the dead in Christ...were "defeated." This presupposes a fictional state of perfection for all saints who passed, as well as those who are still alive. Are there saints who have died who were defeated?
1 Corinthians 11:26-30
King James Version (KJV)
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.There is a general principle taught throughout Scripture in which death is a punishment imposed by God on those who sin. Most will view this, in this Age, as a reference to the Eternal perspective, when in fact...God still imposes this sentence upon those who sin. Meaning...He takes their physical lives from them should their sin become unrepentant and extensive. That is what Paul teaches here, that among those partaking of Communion, there were those doing so unworthily, and many were becoming sick and even dying ("sleep" being a euphemism for death). Ananias and Sapphira are examples of this. And while this Forum teaches and defends Eternal Security, meaning Salvation in Christ is a completed action effected by God apart from the believer's contribution of effort or works, that does not mean that a believer can sin with impunity and not expect to suffer punishment in the physical realm. One who sins will not lose their salvation, but, they just may lose their physical lives. So the idea that there can be no "defeated" members among the Church falls flat as without question many who are raised in the Rapture will face judgment for their failures in this life. Secondly, we distinguish between those who come to saving faith during the Tribulation and the Church of this Age. Let me make it clear that I am not saying there are two groups of those who are saved, there are not, there is but One Fold who has One Shepherd. But that the Church of this Age is Raptured prior to the Tribulation is a truth that is necessitated by Prophecy itself. All who enter into the Tribulation will be unbelievers, and among them will be those who come to saving faith during that period. These will be born again and among them will be those who survive the Tribulation and those who are martyred. If the Rapture of all believers takes place at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns, then why do we see only those who died raised at Christ's Return?
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.This is not the Rapture, as we see only those who die in the Tribulation, identified by the fact that the Beast has come to power and has demanded these worship him, and has put them to death for their refusal. Our A-millennial brethren discount a literal thousand year Kingdom, yet this confuses Prophecy in general. Again, not only did Christ not return roughly 35 years after His death on the Cross, but we see an absence of the conditions said to exist in Prophecy during this period:
Isaiah 65:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 11:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 11:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Another aspect we do not see in this Age is that Israel is not returned to God. Israel is a secular nation and said to be the capitol of homosexuality by some. Another point used to deny the veracity of Prophecy deals with the description of of "Ezekiel's Temple" and the sacrifice said to take place. The question is asked, "How can you think that there will be animals offered up in sacrifice for sin, do you really think they can take away sins post-Cross?" The answer is "No, no more than they did Pre-Cross," lol. When Israel celebrated Passover, for example, they were not each year delivered from the Angel of Death. This was a Memorial meant to bring to remembrance God's deliverance of Israel... ...nothing more. Today, when we partake of Communion, despite the confusion of some of our brethren, we are not receiving Eternal Life (again), we are memorializing that which brought about Eternal Life for all believers:
Luke 22:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.So too, in the Kingdom, there is no reason to doubt Prophecy and think that somehow an offering being made has to be confused with the Offering of Christ. Animal sacrifice did not eternally take away sins prior to the Cross, and it does not eternally take away sin after the Cross (even as Communion does not). Only the shed blood of Christ, and faith in that Sacrifice...can save. Those who partake of Communion are not saved by partaking, but they memorialize that which brought about their salvation...Christ's death in their stead. That does not mean that the provision of sacrifice under the Law (and before) did not have it's value in a temporal setting. For example:
Leviticus 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.The atonement spoken of here should not be confused with The Atonement. The atonement provided was temporal and temporary, which is why these sacrifices had to be offered continually, because they did not take away sin. Only Christ's Sacrifice can take away sin, and make the comer thereunto "perfect," or, complete in regards to remission of sins (Hebrews 10:10-14). Thus we do not impose into any sacrifice made in the Kingdom a quality that impinges upon the remission of sins obtained only through faith in Christ. In the Kingdom we sometimes imagine a perfect setting in which everyone knows the Lord and all are saved. If that is the case, then how do we explain those who join ranks with Satan when he is loosed for a short season at the end of the Millennial Kingdom? It is true that among those in Israel there will be, I think, general knowledge of God and in large part people will worship God in truth, however, we see warning given for those who do not: Zechariah 14:16-19
King James Version (KJV)
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.This speaks of conditions after the Lord REturns, which is depicted just before this statement:
Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.The conditions described both in Old and New Testament Prophecy concerning Christ's Coming do not lend support fro an immediate beginning to the Eternal State. We have to ask how these issues could be ignored by both those who teach the A-millennial View as well as those who deny the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. God bless. |
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2017 14:44:40 GMT -5
Another passage where we see the Rapture is found here:
2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
What Paul is speaking about here is the earthly body we currently reside in. He makes the point "We live in physical bodies but we have a body that is made by God that is eternal."
His second point is "We groan, or in other words, earnestly yearn to be "clothed" in that eternal (glorified) body, rather than the physical body which grows old, weakens, and will eventually die. We look forward to being that body."
Now, here is the point you need to give some consideration: to be "clothed with the eternal body" refers to our "wearing" that body, which Paul has just contrasted with our earthly bodies. And what he means by being found "naked" is a reference to our spirits leaving the earthly body prior to our being clothed with that eternal body. In view is Paul making the statement "We desire, not to die (wherein we would be "naked"), but to, while we yet live...receive that eternal, glorified body.
We desire to be made like Christ, to be glorified as He was as God has promised He will do for His saints.
If you don't see this, go back and read it again, I assure that is what he (Paul) is saying.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Again, "Not that we should die physically (be unclothed), but that our mortal bodies be made immortal."
And I would point out that while we, being born again and reconciled to God (immersed in unchanging eternal union with God), now have eternal life (1 John 5:11-13), we must distinguish in Scripture whether a reference deals specifically with the physical or the eternal. What I mean by that is though we have eternal life through our union with God-for He eternally indwells the believer (John 14:16)-we have not as yet received our eternal, glorified body. We remain in fallen flesh, and the resurrection we have attained to through Christ is the resurrection of man spiritually. The indwelling of the Spirit of God is our guarantee that we will receive the eternal body promised by God:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
In other words, "He Who (Sovereign God) created us for the specific intent that we live eternally with Him has given-as He promised He would do in the Old Testament prophecies-us His Spirit...
...which guarantees He will finish the work He has begun in us.
In other words there is no question as to whether the born again believer will be glorified and dwell eternally with God. The only question that remains is when that is going to take place. And what Paul is saying here is that we desire that it go ahead and take place, but again we do not simply desire to die and be freed from fallen flesh (which is burdensome).
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Man simply cannot dwell with God (in His realm) while we are in this body. Here we again distinguish between the spiritual and eternal, and understand Paul is speaking about a physical separation only, for we are eternally in union with God through Reconciliation effected by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
What he means is that death is not something we are afraid of, for we know that if we do die physically we shall be with the Lord. The separation that exists on a physical level will end, and our physical bodies (which do not allow us to come into God's presence physically) will no longer keep us from God.
When men die their spirits are separated from their physical bodies, the body remaining in the physical realm, their spirits passing into eternity. We see the Lord affirm the disciples' understanding of this here:
Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
It is not a "soul" in view here, but a spirit. When Christ died His Spirit departed the body created for the Incarnation, and when He took His life back up He arose in glorified form. When God created man He did not give man a "soul," but rather a body and spirit, thus making man a soul. It is proper to call a departed spirit in Heaven a soul, for it is the person in view,usually, when reference is made to a soul.
So should we die prior to the Rapture, our spirit shall be unclothed in that the glorified body is received at the Rapture, not at the time of death. We shall be with the Lord, present with Him as Paul states here. Through faith we live in this body and give no thought to death, knowing our destination at death, however, that does not mean we do not "groan" due to being in this body and what life can throw at us. Think of the Martyrs through the history of the Church and what some of them go through, Even among the Old Testament Saints we see persecution and horrendous sufferings. Though most of us, living in a country where we are free to preach the Gospel without fear of more than ridicule, across the world Christians die on a daily basis. As the time of Christ's Return and the Tribulation approaches that freedom will, I think Scripture teaches, become a thing of the past. Even in America we will see a move to satanic practice and leadership which the general population will embrace without knowing they sign their own death warrants...on a physical and eternal basis.
But for us we can, with Paul, yearn for the Rapture and a departure from this world. Knowing only God can determine when one's life ends we walk in faith whilst we remain in this body, but, we graon in expectation of being clothed with that body made by God which is eternal. We do not groan to simply be unclothed, but specifically that Christ would gather His Church from this fallen world.
God bless.
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