Post by Admin on May 9, 2016 8:37:12 GMT -5
This is a response on another forum, presented for consideration and to stir up discussion of the subject:
There is much debate in regards to the use of the terms "gods" and sons of gods and sons of God.
I would suggest that the notion we will, because we become the sons of God, become gods, is not taught in Scripture. There is and always has been One God, and all others are created beings.
Some look to the passages quoted here...
...as an affirmation of becoming or being gods, but there is a difference between the usage of the term gods, which is used to designate men of power among mortal men, and having the nature of God, or, of what might be called a god. An Angel is a powerful spirit being, and compared to men, might be viewed as gods. Men that rule over men, also, might be viewed as gods by other men, but, they are not...gods.
We look at the Psalm Christ quotes and see that men are in view:
Psalm 82
King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
In view are "gods," so we must determine if this is intended to identify those in view as what most consider to be gods, or if this is a designation of the rulers of the people.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Where in Scripture do we have an account of gods ruling over men? Kind of stands in stark contrast to the Basic Bible Principle that men are to worship the One True Living God, doesn't it? The testimony of Scripture does not give us an account of this, and even in the OP it is acknowledged that the sons of God in Genesis are men of power, which agrees with the statement of Scripture.
In view are those who have power over the people, who have the power to rule justly, or unjustly.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Who is in view? Have we ever seen "gods" come out to defend the poor and fatherless? To do justice to the afflicted and needy?
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
To deliver the poor and needy? To rid them out of the hand of the wicked?
In view is everyday life of the people under the ruler-ship of men of power, nothing more. There is nothing that suggests that men in the Old Testament were gods in the sense some groups try to impose into this. Secondly, consider the time of the delivery of this Psalm...and who it is talking to.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
We have no record of men being ruled by simpleton Angels or gods.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
We understand that it is God that places men in power, and His Fatherhood here refers to the fact that He created men, rather than a New Testament sense where we, by believing on Christ, become the sons of God.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The simple fact is a true God cannot die, yet these men will die like the common man he is contrasted with. They will die like one who has not yet ascended to the place of rule (i.e., princes).
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Another affirmation that in view are those on earth, men, not gods.
Now let's look at Christ's statement:
John 10:24-36
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Now consider a few things we looked at concerning Psalm 82:
1. In view is the ruler-ship of a man over other men;
2. God appoints that ruler-ship;
3. God demands just ruler-ship;
4. God declares general Fatherhood (which implies authority over);
The Jews here, probably to the man, have the hope of the Messiah, at least to a certain extent. They demand that Christ declare openly that He is that ruler prophesied of old. But, what they have no clue to is that Messiah would be God manifest in the flesh Himself. They have no clue that the Kingdom Christ will establish is not simply an earthly Kingdom, but an heavenly Kingdom in Eternity. In the mind of the Jew, here is a man, a common man, even, telling them that He is that notable man of Prophecy, the One that should rule over them, and that He is going to give them eternal life.
His next statement, and their reaction, shows that they were looking for only a man:
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
This is one of Christ's clear statements of Deity. His statement equates to Himself and God being of one nature, or essence. This settles in their mind that Jesus cannot be the Messiah, because Messiah, after all...will be a man.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
They are correct, Christ's statement is that He is God.
Now the statement that is so hotly debated:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Now consider carefully, in view here is the specific issue of ruler-ship of men over men. The question cannot be taken out of the context of Psalm 82 and have imposed into it a doctrine that is denied at every turn in the Old Testament (as well as the New, but it is not written at this point).
He is not saying, "Well God called men gods in the Scripture, so why are you upset that I say I am a god?"
We know this first because we know there is but One God. Secondly, this would actually distinguish Christ from His Father, and contradict His statement here, "I and the Father are One," because we do not see Psalm 82 suggesting that the "gods" spoken to are of the same nature or essence of God.
In view is simply questioning their unbelief that He is the Christ, and when we keep His statement intact, we see this. Consider the previous statement...
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Christ's ministry of men exampled, illustrated, that which was demanded of God in Psalm 82 of those who had ruler-ship of men, so His question here is more a statement, "Have I not presented the ideal example of ruler-ship which Scripture foretells of the coming Christ?"
And we see that in His next statement:
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
This is not just a matter of Christ boasting about His accomplishments, miracles, or ministry, it is Christ stating that His very works affirm what they ask of Him. The reason they cannot recognize that is because they are not His sheep (v.26-27). So the point is, why would the Jews doubt that He is the Messiah when He has demonstrated among all the people that He is not only a ruler among men, ordained of God for that role.
The Jews are not equating Christ's statement with the "gods" spoken of in Psalm 82, and Christ is not equating Himself to the gods there. From the perspective of the Jews, they understood full well that the statement of Christ makes Him to be something quite different from the gods of Psalm 82, and for this they would seek to kill Him. From Christ's perspective He is very much speaking about ruler-ship among men, pointing to what they have seen Him do and what they have heard Him say...as evidence that He was the Christ foretold in Prophecy.
Lastly, not one of the passages in the OP give evidence that men become gods. Again, this would contradict the basic principle that there is One God, and there is a significant difference between being designated sons of God (Angels, rulers of men), becoming a son of God (through being brought into union with God through salvation in Christ), and actually being a god.
All who are designated as "gods" are clearly created beings, which denies a view that they are in fact equal to God, or gods at all. And it is particularly clear in Psalm 82 that these "gods" will die like the common man. And when we consider the concept of death, we consider that Angels do not die. Hell was created for Angels who will come under eternal judgment. Again, we do not have a record of Angels, either Holy or unholy, ruling among men. We do have an extensive record of men ruling among men, and see the justification for the rebuke Psalm 82 offers to those among men who have the power to do justice among the other men they have been, by God, given authority over.
God bless.
All who will inherit life immortal will be gods.
There is much debate in regards to the use of the terms "gods" and sons of gods and sons of God.
I would suggest that the notion we will, because we become the sons of God, become gods, is not taught in Scripture. There is and always has been One God, and all others are created beings.
Some look to the passages quoted here...
Psalm 82:6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
John 10:33-34
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Yashua answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
John 10:33-34
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Yashua answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
...as an affirmation of becoming or being gods, but there is a difference between the usage of the term gods, which is used to designate men of power among mortal men, and having the nature of God, or, of what might be called a god. An Angel is a powerful spirit being, and compared to men, might be viewed as gods. Men that rule over men, also, might be viewed as gods by other men, but, they are not...gods.
We look at the Psalm Christ quotes and see that men are in view:
Psalm 82
King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
In view are "gods," so we must determine if this is intended to identify those in view as what most consider to be gods, or if this is a designation of the rulers of the people.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Where in Scripture do we have an account of gods ruling over men? Kind of stands in stark contrast to the Basic Bible Principle that men are to worship the One True Living God, doesn't it? The testimony of Scripture does not give us an account of this, and even in the OP it is acknowledged that the sons of God in Genesis are men of power, which agrees with the statement of Scripture.
In view are those who have power over the people, who have the power to rule justly, or unjustly.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Who is in view? Have we ever seen "gods" come out to defend the poor and fatherless? To do justice to the afflicted and needy?
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
To deliver the poor and needy? To rid them out of the hand of the wicked?
In view is everyday life of the people under the ruler-ship of men of power, nothing more. There is nothing that suggests that men in the Old Testament were gods in the sense some groups try to impose into this. Secondly, consider the time of the delivery of this Psalm...and who it is talking to.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
We have no record of men being ruled by simpleton Angels or gods.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
We understand that it is God that places men in power, and His Fatherhood here refers to the fact that He created men, rather than a New Testament sense where we, by believing on Christ, become the sons of God.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The simple fact is a true God cannot die, yet these men will die like the common man he is contrasted with. They will die like one who has not yet ascended to the place of rule (i.e., princes).
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Another affirmation that in view are those on earth, men, not gods.
Now let's look at Christ's statement:
John 10:24-36
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Now consider a few things we looked at concerning Psalm 82:
1. In view is the ruler-ship of a man over other men;
2. God appoints that ruler-ship;
3. God demands just ruler-ship;
4. God declares general Fatherhood (which implies authority over);
The Jews here, probably to the man, have the hope of the Messiah, at least to a certain extent. They demand that Christ declare openly that He is that ruler prophesied of old. But, what they have no clue to is that Messiah would be God manifest in the flesh Himself. They have no clue that the Kingdom Christ will establish is not simply an earthly Kingdom, but an heavenly Kingdom in Eternity. In the mind of the Jew, here is a man, a common man, even, telling them that He is that notable man of Prophecy, the One that should rule over them, and that He is going to give them eternal life.
His next statement, and their reaction, shows that they were looking for only a man:
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
This is one of Christ's clear statements of Deity. His statement equates to Himself and God being of one nature, or essence. This settles in their mind that Jesus cannot be the Messiah, because Messiah, after all...will be a man.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
They are correct, Christ's statement is that He is God.
Now the statement that is so hotly debated:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Now consider carefully, in view here is the specific issue of ruler-ship of men over men. The question cannot be taken out of the context of Psalm 82 and have imposed into it a doctrine that is denied at every turn in the Old Testament (as well as the New, but it is not written at this point).
He is not saying, "Well God called men gods in the Scripture, so why are you upset that I say I am a god?"
We know this first because we know there is but One God. Secondly, this would actually distinguish Christ from His Father, and contradict His statement here, "I and the Father are One," because we do not see Psalm 82 suggesting that the "gods" spoken to are of the same nature or essence of God.
In view is simply questioning their unbelief that He is the Christ, and when we keep His statement intact, we see this. Consider the previous statement...
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Christ's ministry of men exampled, illustrated, that which was demanded of God in Psalm 82 of those who had ruler-ship of men, so His question here is more a statement, "Have I not presented the ideal example of ruler-ship which Scripture foretells of the coming Christ?"
And we see that in His next statement:
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
This is not just a matter of Christ boasting about His accomplishments, miracles, or ministry, it is Christ stating that His very works affirm what they ask of Him. The reason they cannot recognize that is because they are not His sheep (v.26-27). So the point is, why would the Jews doubt that He is the Messiah when He has demonstrated among all the people that He is not only a ruler among men, ordained of God for that role.
The Jews are not equating Christ's statement with the "gods" spoken of in Psalm 82, and Christ is not equating Himself to the gods there. From the perspective of the Jews, they understood full well that the statement of Christ makes Him to be something quite different from the gods of Psalm 82, and for this they would seek to kill Him. From Christ's perspective He is very much speaking about ruler-ship among men, pointing to what they have seen Him do and what they have heard Him say...as evidence that He was the Christ foretold in Prophecy.
Lastly, not one of the passages in the OP give evidence that men become gods. Again, this would contradict the basic principle that there is One God, and there is a significant difference between being designated sons of God (Angels, rulers of men), becoming a son of God (through being brought into union with God through salvation in Christ), and actually being a god.
All who are designated as "gods" are clearly created beings, which denies a view that they are in fact equal to God, or gods at all. And it is particularly clear in Psalm 82 that these "gods" will die like the common man. And when we consider the concept of death, we consider that Angels do not die. Hell was created for Angels who will come under eternal judgment. Again, we do not have a record of Angels, either Holy or unholy, ruling among men. We do have an extensive record of men ruling among men, and see the justification for the rebuke Psalm 82 offers to those among men who have the power to do justice among the other men they have been, by God, given authority over.
God bless.